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Dark Souls and the pause

#51Res5Posted 4/11/2013 12:19:22 PM
SoaringDive posted...
theshoveller posted...
SoaringDive posted...
theshoveller posted...
SoaringDive posted...
Bad design that makes exclusive (important) content only available by playing the game again?


If it was important, it'd be in all playthroughs, as that person said (which was why I brought it up.)


That's exactly why I said it was bad design. It's basically just an arbitrary "play the game again" that only functions to increase the time spent on that game before moving on and giving money to something else, by making seemingly important content only available by replaying the game rather than because you felt the game was fun and wanted to play on a higher difficulty.

If the pause function should be removed from the second playthrough, why should it be in the first one at all? If having it there diminishes the core value of the game to the point of removing it in NG+, it would be just as diminishing in NG.


Oh, okay. Anyway, I've been a proponent of having pause in all offline playthroughs, and not ever removing it except in the case of online play. If you're offline, you're offline. If you go to throw up, or pee, or let a dog out to use the bathroom, or just spilled your soda, why should you be at risk of being incinerated by a dragon?

I mean, I'm not proposing a "Captain N" style pause, where the world stops and you can rig things in your favor. Man, for being "The Game Master," he sure as hell had to cheat a lot in that cartoon...


This is where it becomes a bit wonky. I think it ultimately comes down to your view of the combat, and what it entails. The Souls games comes down to more decision-based combat, with every action you take having serious consequences (using estus leaves you open, using your heavy attack leaves you open, etc.).

The reason they don't have a pause, is because of the tension that comes from having to make these decisions in real-time. Adding the ability to pause, I feel, removes that tension because you can get as much time as you want to decide what move to make. It's like why reaction-based games like God of War or Guitar Hero cover up the screen when you pause, Souls doesn't allow you to pause because doing so gives you all the time in the world to think (due to the slow paced combat, you don't have to see everything on screen to do that). Which in the end, undermines their goal of creating very tense situations through the mechanics.

Of course, then there's the debate of legit reasons (phone rings) VS. abuse to make the game easier.


You know more often than not I've heard this argument but it's never been necessary. I don't think I've ever actually heard of a person pausing the game to think about what to do next. Like....ever.
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#52jubjub360(Topic Creator)Posted 4/11/2013 12:20:19 PM
SoaringDive posted...
theshoveller posted...
SoaringDive posted...
theshoveller posted...
SoaringDive posted...
Bad design that makes exclusive (important) content only available by playing the game again?


If it was important, it'd be in all playthroughs, as that person said (which was why I brought it up.)


That's exactly why I said it was bad design. It's basically just an arbitrary "play the game again" that only functions to increase the time spent on that game before moving on and giving money to something else, by making seemingly important content only available by replaying the game rather than because you felt the game was fun and wanted to play on a higher difficulty.

If the pause function should be removed from the second playthrough, why should it be in the first one at all? If having it there diminishes the core value of the game to the point of removing it in NG+, it would be just as diminishing in NG.


Oh, okay. Anyway, I've been a proponent of having pause in all offline playthroughs, and not ever removing it except in the case of online play. If you're offline, you're offline. If you go to throw up, or pee, or let a dog out to use the bathroom, or just spilled your soda, why should you be at risk of being incinerated by a dragon?

I mean, I'm not proposing a "Captain N" style pause, where the world stops and you can rig things in your favor. Man, for being "The Game Master," he sure as hell had to cheat a lot in that cartoon...


This is where it becomes a bit wonky. I think it ultimately comes down to your view of the combat, and what it entails. The Souls games comes down to more decision-based combat, with every action you take having serious consequences (using estus leaves you open, using your heavy attack leaves you open, etc.).

The reason they don't have a pause, is because of the tension that comes from having to make these decisions in real-time. Adding the ability to pause, I feel, removes that tension because you can get as much time as you want to decide what move to make. It's like why reaction-based games like God of War or Guitar Hero cover up the screen when you pause, Souls doesn't allow you to pause because doing so gives you all the time in the world to think (due to the slow paced combat, you don't have to see everything on screen to do that). Which in the end, undermines their goal of creating very tense situations through the mechanics.

Of course, then there's the debate of legit reasons (phone rings) VS. abuse to make the game easier.


See that's what I've been saying. I'm not saying using the pause button as a means to cheat. The pause menu was intended for the game to completely stop so that the user can go do other things while never having to leave the game and they can just pick up where they left off.

What's stopping the developers from doing, as your examples of guitar hero and god of war, what you had said? Here think about it this way:
Select/Back pauses the game, the whole screen goes pitch black and on it says "Pause".
That's what I think of when I hear pause menu, not just the word on the screen and you can view everything.
#53KOTRsssPosted 4/11/2013 12:22:49 PM
Quitting the game is the pause function.
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#54theshovellerPosted 4/11/2013 12:23:34 PM
Res5 posted...
You know more often than not I've heard this argument but it's never been necessary. I don't think I've ever actually heard of a person pausing the game to think about what to do next. Like....ever.


I'll admit, on rare occasions and in more "tactical" games, I've done it. Dragon Age Origins, for example, I'll hold open the radial menu and think about the next critical move or two when my main character goes down and something like a dragon is targeting my only mage next. Even then, it's only for a few seconds.

Now, compare that to how often I pause because of interruptions and the like... I'd say "pausing for tactics" makes up a whole 0.01% of my "pause time."
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#55Res5Posted 4/11/2013 12:25:17 PM
theshoveller posted...
Res5 posted...
You know more often than not I've heard this argument but it's never been necessary. I don't think I've ever actually heard of a person pausing the game to think about what to do next. Like....ever.


I'll admit, on rare occasions and in more "tactical" games, I've done it. Dragon Age Origins, for example, I'll hold open the radial menu and think about the next critical move or two when my main character goes down and something like a dragon is targeting my only mage next. Even then, it's only for a few seconds.

Now, compare that to how often I pause because of interruptions and the like... I'd say "pausing for tactics" makes up a whole 0.01% of my "pause time."


Yeah but that would qualify more under strategizing while menuing more than pausing specifically to work out what you do next.
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#56SoaringDivePosted 4/11/2013 12:29:59 PM
jubjub360 posted...
See that's what I've been saying. I'm not saying using the pause button as a means to cheat. The pause menu was intended for the game to completely stop so that the user can go do other things while never having to leave the game and they can just pick up where they left off.

What's stopping the developers from doing, as your examples of guitar hero and god of war, what you had said? Here think about it this way:
Select/Back pauses the game, the whole screen goes pitch black and on it says "Pause".
That's what I think of when I hear pause menu, not just the word on the screen and you can view everything.


I was probably really unclear about it, I'll try to be more clear in this post (I'm going to use point form, because if I write in paragraphs I'm going to lose focus):

-Guitar Hero and God of War are much faster paced than Souls
-The faster pace comes from being more about reactions, such as reacting to the notes coming down
-If you could pause in Guitar Hero and still see the track, it'd make the game way easier because you don't have to perform completely real-time
-same with God of War and other fast-paced games (including Tetris)

-Souls is slow paced
-More about decisions than reactions
-As such, there's no difference between pausing and covering the screen and pausing and showing the screen
-Due to the aspect of being able to lose a lot, the option to pause means being able to stop mid-boss fight, go on GameFAQs boards and ask for the easy way to finish the fight, without ever having the risks of losing your souls and humanity
-this aspect of tension was too much of a main goal, and therefore

God of War is more about performance, while Dark Souls is more about decisions. Do you try to parry, or do you block? Do you go back and try to heal, or realize the risks involved and decide to keep pressing forward on the enemy.

...wow, I sure am becoming the Jonathon Blow of a game I had no part in making, lol.
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#57theshovellerPosted 4/11/2013 12:34:27 PM
I'd argue that the Souls games are sometimes indeed about reactions and less about strategy. In a fight, sure - strategy is a part of every game's combat system, in some base form. All the strategy in the world won't save you from that rolling boulder coming from behind you in the first level of Demon's Souls, or from a trap door that suddenly opens underneath you. You might miss a tripwire as a clue, but does that fall under strategy or under reaction time?

What's the difference between quitting during a boss fight, googling up a strategy, and loading / resuming the fight, or pausing it and doing the same?
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You ever meet one of those Don Quixote types and just wonder "What the hell are they thinking?"
#58jubjub360(Topic Creator)Posted 4/11/2013 12:37:09 PM
SoaringDive posted...
jubjub360 posted...
See that's what I've been saying. I'm not saying using the pause button as a means to cheat. The pause menu was intended for the game to completely stop so that the user can go do other things while never having to leave the game and they can just pick up where they left off.

What's stopping the developers from doing, as your examples of guitar hero and god of war, what you had said? Here think about it this way:
Select/Back pauses the game, the whole screen goes pitch black and on it says "Pause".
That's what I think of when I hear pause menu, not just the word on the screen and you can view everything.


I was probably really unclear about it, I'll try to be more clear in this post (I'm going to use point form, because if I write in paragraphs I'm going to lose focus):

-Guitar Hero and God of War are much faster paced than Souls
-The faster pace comes from being more about reactions, such as reacting to the notes coming down
-If you could pause in Guitar Hero and still see the track, it'd make the game way easier because you don't have to perform completely real-time
-same with God of War and other fast-paced games (including Tetris)

-Souls is slow paced
-More about decisions than reactions
-As such, there's no difference between pausing and covering the screen and pausing and showing the screen
-Due to the aspect of being able to lose a lot, the option to pause means being able to stop mid-boss fight, go on GameFAQs boards and ask for the easy way to finish the fight, without ever having the risks of losing your souls and humanity
-this aspect of tension was too much of a main goal, and therefore

God of War is more about performance, while Dark Souls is more about decisions. Do you try to parry, or do you block? Do you go back and try to heal, or realize the risks involved and decide to keep pressing forward on the enemy.

...wow, I sure am becoming the Jonathon Blow of a game I had no part in making, lol.


I totally understand where you're coming from. That's why, with the option I presented, it would be only used in offline mode and one playthrough. It doesn't give the unfair advantage of using through all of your NG+ games yet it allows you to understand the mechanics of the game in your first playthrough, so by the time you get to the second playthrough, it allows you to understand what works and what doesn't.

Here let me use this as an example: Megaman X (I believe). First level you play, you're learning the mechanics (How to jump, shoot your blaster, wall ride, enemy patterns) and by the time you get to Vile, you know the basic mechanics of the game. That's playthrough number one of Dark Souls 2. NG+ is everything after Vile. The upgrades of MMX is you understanding the mechanics better and knowing how the weapons work.
#59A_Nonny_MoosePosted 4/11/2013 12:39:55 PM(edited)
From: SoaringDive | Posted: 4/11/2013 8:29:59 PM | #056
-If you could pause in Guitar Hero and still see the track, it'd make the game way easier because you don't have to perform completely real-time

Except the games rewind and after you pause and you get a 3 second count down before the next note because without that pausing actually makes the games a lot harder, whether you can see the track or not. Getting back into a song after a pause without messing up is nearly impossible without the countdown.

But they also added a restriction that if you pause a certain amount of times (to prepare for or split up a difficult section of a song) then it doesn't record your score online.

But there is literally no good reason to not have a pause option at all. Restricting it to just the first playthrough is also a terrible idea.
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#60SoaringDivePosted 4/11/2013 12:39:42 PM
Res5 posted...
You know more often than not I've heard this argument but it's never been necessary. I don't think I've ever actually heard of a person pausing the game to think about what to do next. Like....ever.


That's simply because there hasn't been a Souls game you can pause ;)

But it's not necessarily decisions directly (like "hmm, do I parry?"), but more of "I'm not doing any damage to Seath, I'll pause the game and check the wiki so I don't lose my souls". The tension has been released, before even overcoming the boss. And I'd argue that means that defeating the boss while leave much less of a satisfying feeling that they're going for when the game does the release of tension ("YOU DEFEATED... +120000").

I think the optimal middle ground would be not allowing for pauses in the middle of a boss battle. Once you enter that fog you have to duel it out until one of you is dead (this is the big reason why doing the "quit to pause" thing sets you right outside to for gate when you come back).
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