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PS3 user here. Need HDTV suggestions.

#11ForceSensitiveX(Topic Creator)Posted 10/26/2013 5:37:48 PM
archizzy posted...
Earlier I ruled out Panasonic Plasmas based on a few reasons. Mostly being terrible input lag on the ST series. Normally I wouldn't recommend a set below the ST series but this is a unique situation which is why I'm willing to recommend a "lower" model.

There is a lower series called the S60 model which doesn't have as good a panel, and lacks any Anti Reflective filter which makes its picture quality drop off in lighting fairly quickly.

Here is the good part though. There is a hybrid model called the S64 which is only exclusive to Costco and Sams Club. Normally some of these special Sams Club models end up being based on another model but they have a few things removed making them a bit "less" of a tv. This is a unique situation where the hybrid ends up being a better tv.

The S64 is is a copy of the S60 with two exceptions. It has a better panel in it. (Same as the ST series) and it comes with the AR filter (same as ST) meaning the washout won't happen if you happen to have lights on or have a bright room. The one big weakness of the S60 was the dropoff in light conditions. The S64 does not have this issue.

This is a professional review of the S60 model (which will apply to the S64 but minus the weaknesses from lack of filter)

http://tinyurl.com/lfree3q

It also doesn't suffer the poor input lag results of the ST series as evidence here in some professional testing on that.

http://tinyurl.com/mzcxct3

The S60 tests out over twice as good as the ST series. So you avoid the plagues of the ST series and gain the benefit from it on the better panel and the AR filter when picking up the S64 from a Sams/Costco.

You may not even be sensitive to input lag and may not even need the game mode and all the better if you don't. But if you do need it, it is nice to know it won't b so pronounced on the S64. The final thing to mention is temporary image retention. I don't think it will be an issue. Especially if you use the tv for normal tv/movie watching as well as gaming. I wouldn't have an issue with it but I understand if it is something that turns you away. You shouldn't ever see it on normal content, and maybe only see shades of it on "blank inputs" but not with an image on the screen.

Again if this makes you uncomfy we can look elsewhere and go LCD.

The 50 inch set goes for around $600 at Costco.
This tv essentially falls in perfectly as a hybrid that hits all the good points and eliminates some weaknesses. At the price you will find no better option.


This confirms a lot of what I've read abotu the S60. So if this S64 is available at either of these stores near me, I may have to check them out.
#12ForceSensitiveX(Topic Creator)Posted 10/26/2013 5:43:07 PM
archizzy posted...
ForceSensitiveX posted...
GamerRaf posted...
CRT? LOL.


I'll accept any "wow, dude, you still use one of those" only if you wish to poke fun at the size or weight. Don't let the fact that it's an older style of tech fool you. If it hadn't died, I'd still be using it. The picture/sound quality is far better than any LCD/Plasma I've encountered. Apart only from some $3000 units I've had the honor of watching (and, seriously, anything that costly better be dang good).


Some of the older top quality CRT sets hold up very well. The Sony XBR960 with the super fine pitch tubes is among one of the best displays ever made and still holds it's own quite well.

The drawback is size/weight and being limited in size.


Thank you for clarifying this more. Personally, I like HD CRTs. Mine is a Sony Wega Trinitron 36" 1080i. I cannot recall the exact model number (manual vanished about a year ago, and the tv is almost too dang big to swivel around and look at the sticker).
#13ForceSensitiveX(Topic Creator)Posted 10/27/2013 10:06:01 AM(edited)
archizzy posted...
The S64 is is a copy of the S60 with two exceptions. It has a better panel in it. (Same as the ST series) and it comes with the AR filter (same as ST) meaning the washout won't happen if you happen to have lights on or have a bright room. The one big weakness of the S60 was the dropoff in light conditions. The S64 does not have this issue.


Thanks again for the info. I called every location of both stores that are remotely near me. Neither carry that model. I was partial to the S60/S64 due to it being known for reasonable input lag. Most places say it makes a fine enough gaming TV.

Also, I need to have my big Sony picked up and recycled. The only two places near me that do that are Best Buy (with a new TV purchase) and one recycling center (it won't be cheap). And Best Buy only has the S60.

Costco does have the TC-65PS64. Would this be the same, only 65"?
#14SirWaWaPosted 10/27/2013 10:57:01 AM
GamerRaf posted...
ForceSensitiveX posted...
My large-as-a-car-trunk Sony HD CRT finally kicked the bucket. It's not unfixable, but I am to the point where I'm looking for an excuse to trade up. Having a 300lb TV the size of a space capsule is becoming a burden.

As far as flat HDTVs, I used to have a 42" Samsung. It had horrible input lag. Online gaming sucked, and blu-ray movies looked like they were dubbed. It also suffered from motion blur. I bought it back in 2008 for a pretty penny, too. It ended up going back, but it left a bad taste in my mouth.

Quality above all else, plasmas seem to have the richest contrast and best colors. Also, plasmas have what...about a 600Hz refresh rate? Should take care of the motion blur. And their response times seem good. But what about burn-in? Is that still prevalent? Games have a lot of static imagery.

I'm thinking about the Panasonic TC-P50S60, but can anyone give me some solid alternatives?


LCD or CRT.
They have a better viewing angle which is better for a larger room.
They have the best picture in a dark room.
They have a more durable screen.

Plasma also has its cons:
Not good in a room with a lot of light because of glare
Much heavier and hotter
Burns more energy
Should be left on for 48 hours straight when brand new to prevent images from burning into the screen.
Extended warranty is more expensive.

LCD has pros over Plasma:
Better for watching TV in room with a lot of light.
Light weight
Consumes less energy

LED is even better then the pros of Plasma and LCD and virtually no cons compared to them.

LED has no viewing angle issues, unlike traditional LCD
it looks evenly lit all around, PC monitors may have issues, TV's do not, I dunno why but go try it
go LED and you'll never want anything else that came before it
#15archizzyPosted 10/27/2013 10:59:11 AM
ForceSensitiveX posted...
archizzy posted...
The S64 is is a copy of the S60 with two exceptions. It has a better panel in it. (Same as the ST series) and it comes with the AR filter (same as ST) meaning the washout won't happen if you happen to have lights on or have a bright room. The one big weakness of the S60 was the dropoff in light conditions. The S64 does not have this issue.


Thanks again for the info. I called every location of both stores that are remotely near me. Neither carry that model. I was partial to the S60/S64 due to it being known for reasonable input lag. Most places say it makes a fine enough gaming TV.

Also, I need to have my big Sony picked up and recycled. The only two places near me that do that are Best Buy (with a new TV purchase) and one recycling center (it won't be cheap). And Best Buy only has the S60.

Costco does have the TC-65PS64. Would this be the same, only 65"?


Yes it is the same. It comes in 50 and 65 inches. That is the 65 inch S64 model. Same hybrid S60 with the ST panel and AR filter.
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PSN ID: sled_dogs76
60" Pioneer Kuro Elite PRO151FD, Yamaha RX-V3900 A/V Receiver, Oppo DV983-H player. Coming soon: 2 Seaton Submersives from Mark Seaton
#16archizzyPosted 10/27/2013 11:09:48 AM
SirWaWa posted...

LED has no viewing angle issues, unlike traditional LCD
it looks evenly lit all around, PC monitors may have issues, TV's do not, I dunno why but go try it
go LED and you'll never want anything else that came before it



Every single professional review, forum dedicated to display tech, and personal experience would disagree with you. Granted most gamers who don't use the display in a family setting can normally ignore this because they tend to sit dead center but to say LED (whether edge lit, direct lit, or full array with local dimming) doesn't have off angle drop off is just flat out untrue. All LCDs have off angle degradation to an extent.
---
PSN ID: sled_dogs76
60" Pioneer Kuro Elite PRO151FD, Yamaha RX-V3900 A/V Receiver, Oppo DV983-H player. Coming soon: 2 Seaton Submersives from Mark Seaton
#17ForceSensitiveX(Topic Creator)Posted 10/31/2013 8:41:53 AM
archizzy posted...
ForceSensitiveX posted...
archizzy posted...
The S64 is is a copy of the S60 with two exceptions. It has a better panel in it. (Same as the ST series) and it comes with the AR filter (same as ST) meaning the washout won't happen if you happen to have lights on or have a bright room. The one big weakness of the S60 was the dropoff in light conditions. The S64 does not have this issue.


Thanks again for the info. I called every location of both stores that are remotely near me. Neither carry that model. I was partial to the S60/S64 due to it being known for reasonable input lag. Most places say it makes a fine enough gaming TV.

Also, I need to have my big Sony picked up and recycled. The only two places near me that do that are Best Buy (with a new TV purchase) and one recycling center (it won't be cheap). And Best Buy only has the S60.

Costco does have the TC-65PS64. Would this be the same, only 65"?


Yes it is the same. It comes in 50 and 65 inches. That is the 65 inch S64 model. Same hybrid S60 with the ST panel and AR filter.


Would the larger size affect input lag? I am not sure what factors do, but at least a handful of articles I read said that size does (though, they usually said that may be the case for LCDs, given how they process images). Any of this true?
#18archizzyPosted 10/31/2013 9:55:43 AM
ForceSensitiveX posted...


Would the larger size affect input lag? I am not sure what factors do, but at least a handful of articles I read said that size does (though, they usually said that may be the case for LCDs, given how they process images). Any of this true?


Scaling and processing impact input lag results.

Same models, with the same circuitry, set up the same way will yield similar results in different sizes. With that being said when there are different results it can be a few things.

The infamous "samsung panel lottery" could yield different results depending on the type of panel you got even though the model tv is the same.

Another thing to keep in mind is that some tvs under the same model will have slightly different picture options/circuitry.

Backing up a few years when the standard sizes for LCDs topped out at 52 inches, you often saw features that only came in the 46 and 52 inch model that may be absent on the 40 inch model. Then when you looked at the 32 inch model it may be a different panel along with different options under the same model number.

Sizes have gone up and in the modern era generally you don't see the models covering the 40,46, and 52 inch range for top end models. They now pretty much designate entirely different models for the under 46 inch purchases.

A good example of this was in 2008 with the Sony XBR series. The XBR7 in 40 inches had the BE2 EX processor and 120Hz panel. It was the only model to have the BE2 EX processor. The XBR 6 and all other lower models had the BE2 processor. This was the first XBR tv to not have a PRO processor. The 52 inch XBR7 had a 240Hz panel (the only one of the year) and it had BE2 PRO processing.

There is a common belief that smaller sizes have less input lag due to size. The reality is that while smaller sets often do have less input lag it's because smaller sized sets have normally less processing, less advanced picture settings, and in the cases of some monitors, no scalers. It is a misguided belief in the same way "1080p only matters above x size" is misguided. There is factual, technical reasons for it but the myth continues to this day.

Scaling and processing. It all comes back to that. All panels have some variation. Even running the same test dozens of times on the same panel yields different results. This is why they run the test multiple times and take an average.

I assure you in this case the 65 inch display is a carbon copy of the 50 inch set and will yield similar results.
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PSN ID: sled_dogs76
60" Pioneer Kuro Elite PRO151FD, Yamaha RX-V3900 A/V Receiver, Oppo DV983-H player. Coming soon: 2 Seaton Submersives from Mark Seaton