Kazuya vs Jin vs Heihachi vs Jinpachi

#21ivancagePosted 3/31/2009 12:06:55 AM
He had just merged with his devil gene, something it didn't even know could happen.

Kaz didn't merged with it, he was able to control Devil throught the research he did at G Corp. When Kaz talks about "unifying our power" he refers to joining both halves of Devil (his one and Jin's).

Also, Kaz only turned into Devil twice (to escape the Jacks and at the volcano, thought that one was not voluntarily). Kaz in T4's ending is only enhanced by the Devil Gene, but for some reason makes no use of the total extent of the powers, aka transform. (or atleast we are not told if he does).

Heihachi does fight and beat Devil Kazuya.

According to the prologue of T3, he was not aware of Devil's existence, therefore he couldn't have fought him. T4 also reinforces this since Hei discovers Kaz has the Devil Gene when he sees photos of his "corpse" in the volcano with wing-like bulges on his back.

Baek was beaten by Ogre and yet Jin beats True Ogre

Well, Baek was ambushed and didn't knew about Ogre. Jin was aware of Ogre's existence, in a face-to-face match, well prepared and eager to avenge Jun (strength plus from hate). Not saying Baek is stronger than Jin, just clarifying.

I also like how you guys forget that Jin has already beaten Hwoarang in the past.

Jin never beats Hwoarang. Their only confirmed fight previous to T5 was a draw (when they faced off previous to T3). They never fought in T3 or 4.

As for the topic itself, I'd say it goes like this:

Devil-whoever < Heihachi < Jin = Kazuya < Hwoarang

Heihachi has defeated Kazuya twice (T2 and T4), even thought he has Devil enhancement (Hei noticed a "dangerous power" in Kaz, as mentioned in T3). His only lose to him (T1) was stated Heihachi had neglected his training due to his evil plans.

Heihachi vs Jin is debatable, but Jin was in his Devil form when they fought (confirmed in T5's prologue) and was strengthened/blinded by his rage. Plus, Hei seems rather confident, and considering he thrashed a more experienced Devil Gene user twice, he has reasons to. As for the chains: Devil forced Jin's transformation throught provocation, until his energy was strong enough to counter the chain's effect. I'd assume this means his devil powers were at their top in order to break free, and the thick aura around him seems to point to that.

I don't give Kaz and Jin any difference. T6 seems to go for them being equals or very close in strength. And I know Jin beats Kaz in T4, which may put him slightly above him at most. As for Hwoarang, same deal. It is certain Jin wasn't really focused on his fight (based on his pre-fight intro), while Hwoarang was eagerly awaiting this for 2 years and months. Jin's probably superior by a small margin.

As for Jinpachi, I prefer to ignore him. There're no details about his fight with Jin, and there's no other fight to draw any conclusion. As a sidenote, since Jinpachi was against the Devil and struggled to stop him, maybe that played a role in his only fight. But who knows.

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#22ninjabayPosted 3/31/2009 2:32:24 AM
"Devil-whoever < Heihachi < Jin = Kazuya < Hwoarang"
how can this be true?the devil enhances someones abbilities so they must be stronger.
Jin = Kazuya this i agree because the story to tekken 6 is mainly them being equals.
heihachi beat both so he should be stronger but DJ and DK must be stronger than him and also equals.
hworang is weaker but not by a long shot, just a bit weaker than jin.
like i said with my inicial post heihchi is the strongest non-devil mishima but its not fair since jin and kaz cant use their true power
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#23xOmniCloudxPosted 3/31/2009 11:00:06 AM
Heihachi has defeated Kazuya twice (T2 and T4), even thought he has Devil enhancement (Hei noticed a "dangerous power" in Kaz, as mentioned in T3). His only lose to him (T1) was stated Heihachi had neglected his training due to his evil plans.

As for the T4 confrontation with Kazuya and Heihachi. It always seemed like Kazuya cared more about finding Jin to reclaim Devil's other half more than winning. I think he lost on purpose to get Heihachi to lead him to Jin. Seeing the power he was willingly able to tap into and given his own ending (beating Heihachi with a single blink while not even transformed) in T4, I find it near impossible for him to lose to Heihachi at that stage unless he threw the fight.

how can this be true?the devil enhances someones abbilities so they must be stronger.

I think he did the arrows backwards by mistake.


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#24ninjabayPosted 3/31/2009 12:00:07 PM
oh ok.

i also though Kazuya gave the win to Heihachi to find out Jin
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#25ivancagePosted 4/1/2009 12:10:29 AM
Yeah...my mistake... : P

As for the comment, yeah one can consider that option too. I guess my main concern would be the way his T5 profile mentions this event. "Kazuya suffered a defeat at the hands of Heihachi and later Jin at the Honmaru.". Sounds like a genuine defeat to me and doesn't make any effort to hint he faked it. But that's not really concrete enough, so the possibility is open.

As for the blinking Hei away, I always saw that as more of a Devil feat than Kazuya's, as he was the one talking at that part. I'd really want to see Kazuya using the Devil Gene powers 100% for once just to see how much stuff he can make use of. Jin's been unleashing Devil-beatings since his debut, so it's only fair...

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#26LeftyCatcherMitPosted 4/1/2009 8:06:27 AM
Solving this could take time.


Jinpachi: -2 points
By far the weakest. He was defeated by Heihachi and sealed beneath Hon-Maru, then defeated by Jin (in any way, shape or form.) He bottoms out on default as he has no win record.

Kazuya: -2 points
Possibly under Heihachi for the fact that he defeated Heihachi on his own strength alone ONCE, which was in Tekken 1.Kazuya lost to Hei in 4. (in the arena/legally.) Kazuya was not yet merged with Devil and did not "fight" again with Heihachi (resorting to ejecting him from the room) before Kazuya lost to Jin. So either way, Kazuya has 3 losses, (Hei/T2, Hei/T4, Jin/T4.) 1 win (Hei, T1) and one Tie. (Paul/ Pre-T1)

Heihachi: 1point
He beat Kazuya twice, but lost to Jin and Kazuya once apiece. He also defeated his own father once, so he has a record of 3 wins, 2 losses.

Jin: 3 (or 2) points
Defeated all three of the previous one time apiece, suffered no losses to the above. He has one loss to Hwoarang which is highly debatable as it is unclear whether or not "Devil" Jin interfered with the factor of Jin taking the loss/win. (In any case, he still beat Hwoarang Pre-T3, so in any case, it still might balance out to having 3 points.)

(From this point on is just conjecture, It might provide insight in figuring this all out.)

Now, if the Devil Gene actually boosts the probability of win rates/strength, this would have in fact twisted and/or warped the matches they had effectively (given the times that the D-gene had been actively plot-driven.

To set this all straight, To start from T4, might Kazuya have beaten Hehachi in the Arena had his devil abilities been at full efficiency then? Possibly.
Kazuya had beaten Hehachi before. It was probably within his definitive reach then. Whether this is the case with Jin or not is unclear. I do believe it would have helped him to defeat Heihachi, but neither Jin nor Kazuya had been in a definitive state of Regular/Devil.

The going understanding is that Jin was in a partially/mixed state along with Kazuya as Kazuya had just then merged with his own while he attempted to Trigger Jin's with an unclear result. Neither of them were "completely" Devil as both Tekken 4 and 5 show that none of them even reached their "Full-Devil" states until long after the fighting was over. Kazuya went "Full-Devil" form to aid his own escape and Jin had awakened "Full Devil" in a forest. It has yet to be seen whether or not Devil Kazuya poses a threat to Jin in Regular, or "Full-Devil" forms. All it takes is A contest of best 2 out of 3 to decide, so it might be an answer 2 or 3 more sequels down the line. (If we are lucky enough to get that Many.)

(I have just stated the obvious.)
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#27ninjabayPosted 4/2/2009 8:39:29 AM
the problem is that when they fought never were both competitors in top shape
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#28Vector1337Posted 4/2/2009 12:24:05 PM
Jin beat Kazuya in Honmaru, then Heihachi. He beat them both IN A ROW.

Without any devil powers though, Heihachi wins. I've never seen Heihachi transform into his devil form, so he probably doesn't NEED the devil gene to kick ass.
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#29ninjabayPosted 4/3/2009 9:32:13 AM
without devils heihachi wins, with them its a tie probably
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#30SSJ_JinPosted 4/3/2009 10:05:37 PM
Ahh, I stand corrected on Jin beating Hwoarang previously. I was wrong on that and I admit it. I apologize.

The only other issue I have is Heihachi and Kazuya in T2. While the T3 bio does state he was unaware of devil's presence, a couple of things contradict that. Before I get to them, it's stated that Kazuya had supernatural powers in T2, (which Jun realized) so whether or not Kazuya completely transformed doesn't really matter, (unless you want to argue that a full transformation is the only way) because he still used his devil gene.

In any case, the things that go against that is that Heihachi is clear as to what the devil gene is. He realizes he doesn't have it after using Ogre's DNA and searches for Jin because Jin is the only one who has it now, (because he killed Kazuya, so he knew about it). Then he finds out the G-Corporation has his body so Heihachi sends his Force to get him, (for the gene).

This is also taken from Heihachi's bio in T3:

At the same time he noticed that Jin, the youngest of Mishima bloodline, began to show the same "dangerous power" as Kazuya had.

He clearly knew, regardless of whether he knew the term, that the devil gene was present and Kazuya used it in T2.

In short, Heihachi has beaten Devil Kazuya before. Although it may not have been a full transformation.

Jin, on the other hand, has defeated everyone by himself until T5. He was weakened when he beat a merged Devil Kazuya and then Heihachi right after that. Jin did not use his devil gene while fighting them. Only after he beat Heihachi and Jinpachi was coming to was Jin's devil starting to be released. But he maintained his will until he left.

I still think Hwoarang got lucky with Jin because I really don't see him beating Heihachi or even Kazuya for that matter.
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