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Why Ganondorf is #1

#101yelocakeffect_2Posted 4/27/2010 11:53:41 AM
@Duh_Key
Brawl Minus Tries to be Melee and fails at it. It's a good Mugen game definitely, but no one will ever take it seriously tournament wise. :)

Aaaand you just proved that you know nothing about Brawl minus.

Ummm, have you bother to read their mission statement? Thier Blogs? Anything? As a matter of fact, I want you to go there, hit the ol' "Control + F", type in the word "Melee" and see how many times you can find it on thier entries. As a mtter of fact, do this... and then do the same with Balanced Brawl... Tell me what you "Ctrl+F". lol!! >:P
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#102Duh_Key(Topic Creator)Posted 4/27/2010 12:43:31 PM

From: yelocakeffect_2 | #101
Ummm, have you bother to read their mission statement? Thier Blogs? Anything? As a matter of fact, I want you to go there, hit the ol' "Control + F", type in the word "Melee" and see how many times you can find it on thier entries. As a mtter of fact, do this... and then do the same with Balanced Brawl... Tell me what you "Ctrl+F". lol!! >:P


Obviously you haven't. Brawl minus does not attempt to be Melee at all. Please, continue spamming this blatant lie though, it makes correcting you much, much easier.

Balanced Brawl is horrible. You've never even played + or - and you know it. So you know you can't even really comment on this. I don't know why you're still posting.
#103gsk6390Posted 4/27/2010 2:23:21 PM
Ummm, have you bother to read their mission statement? Thier Blogs? Anything? As a matter of fact, I want you to go there, hit the ol' "Control + F", type in the word "Melee" and see how many times you can find it on thier entries

http://www.brawlminus.com/index.php

Once. That too, about Project Melee, not Brawl-

As I said earlier:

Melee is the only Smash game other than Brawl, right? And only Melee has more hitstun than Brawl, right? Cos Melee is just as floaty as Brawl, has just as much hitlag as Brawl and in Melee every character is godly, right?

Engine wise, Brawl- has NOTHING in common with Melee. It only has 2 things in common with Smash64, high hitstun and high shieldstun. Every other aspect of its engine is still vBrawl (floaty, high hitlag etc.)

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#104007GanondorfPosted 4/27/2010 6:53:24 PM
"^agreed. Ganon gets all the *****es."

Why yes. Yes I do.

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs16/f/2007/172/d/c/Ganondorf_loves_the_ladies_by_rcoolcat2.jpg
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#105Blake ForcePosted 4/27/2010 7:40:23 PM

From: Officer Cooper | #074
I'm going to try to un-de-rail this topic by making the worst analogy of all time:

BBrawl : Shawshank Redemption :: Brawl- : The Hangover

With that arbitrary and meaningless comparison out of the way, did anyone see the Balanced Brawl Showcase? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpQkTMNLsBI) It's really, really on-topic. You really have to see it to understand just how on-topic it is.


Brawl: Troll 2
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#106yelocakeffect_2Posted 4/27/2010 7:40:46 PM
@gsk6390 & Duh_Key
Posted 4/27/2010 12:43:31 PM
message detail

Obviously you haven't. Brawl minus does not attempt to be Melee at all. Please, continue spamming this blatant lie though, it makes correcting you much, much easier.
Balanced Brawl is horrible. You've never even played + or - and you know it. So you know you can't even really comment on this. I don't know why you're still posting.


Agh, so I see they've change their tune... fair enuff. But I can simply say Brawl Minus attempts to be Mugen and succeeds. See how easy that was, and in fact it is much more insulting. A Mugen game can be fun, lots of fun, don't get me wrong, but taken seriously? Forget it.

As for me being a liar, well, consider me corrected in my new statement. Besides, I MAKE fighting games, I don't necessary need to play them to dissect them. As a matter of fact, I told most people Brawl was unbalanced before things like chain-grabs and jab-locks even came into discovery. Even though everyone like to cry "high-level" play when people discuss Brawls mechanics, some things are just obvious.

Balanced Brawl simply fix'd what was broken in the current metagame. How can that be bad... seriously? The only reason anyone complained about the engine was due to the imbalanced it causes in itemless 1 vs 1 matches. It was not necessarily flawed in execution, but result.

I'll tell you whats bad though, is breaking every character in the hope of fixing them, which NEVER works.. and trust me, I've played enuff Mugen to know that for a fact. :/
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#107Blake ForcePosted 4/27/2010 7:49:43 PM

From: yelocakeffect_2 | #106
@gsk6390 & Duh_Key
Posted 4/27/2010 12:43:31 PM
message detail

Obviously you haven't. Brawl minus does not attempt to be Melee at all. Please, continue spamming this blatant lie though, it makes correcting you much, much easier.
Balanced Brawl is horrible. You've never even played + or - and you know it. So you know you can't even really comment on this. I don't know why you're still posting.


Agh, so I see they've change their tune... fair enuff. But I can simply say Brawl Minus attempts to be Mugen and succeeds. See how easy that was, and in fact it is much more insulting. A Mugen game can be fun, lots of fun, don't get me wrong, but taken seriously? Forget it.

As for me being a liar, well, consider me corrected in my new statement. Besides, I MAKE fighting games, I don't necessary need to play them to dissect them. As a matter of fact, I told most people Brawl was unbalanced before things like chain-grabs and jab-locks even came into discovery. Even though everyone like to cry "high-level" play when people discuss Brawls mechanics, some things are just obvious.

Balanced Brawl simply fix'd what was broken in the current metagame. How can that be bad... seriously? The only reason anyone complained about the engine was due to the imbalanced it causes in itemless 1 vs 1 matches. It was not necessarily flawed in execution, but result.

I'll tell you whats bad though, is breaking every character in the hope of fixing them, which NEVER works.. and trust me, I've played enuff Mugen to know that for a fact. :/


You fail to realize that MUGEN was a horrible engine to begin with. Brawl has a much better engine.
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#108yelocakeffect_2Posted 4/27/2010 7:55:30 PM
@Blake Force
Actually no... the scenarios are identical. You see, all character have original properties... some fans went in and modified them to their liking. The characters who where modified where just fine how they where made, or broken depending on the game. Both are fan made wet dreams that = disasters. Are we done here? :/
#109gsk6390Posted 4/28/2010 4:20:51 AM
The only reason anyone complained about the engine was due to the imbalanced it causes in itemless 1 vs 1 matches.

It seems that the only Smash game you've ever played is Brawl. There's more than just character balance. You totally forgot about gameplay style, speed and depth. :

Ledge/offstage/recovering/edgeguarding/gimping/floatiness etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEz1Q7DpOU0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMbgxD5l8xQ

Imagine a 2D Mario. A difficult jump is successful if Mario is 30 pixels away from the edge of the platform he's trying to reach. Wouldn't that be considered bad game design? The ledge grabbing range in Brawl is simply too large. This makes recovery easier than previous Smashes and leads to longer lasting stocks. Not only that, but it means fighting offstage isn't quite as intense/dangerous as there's less to worry/think about since being in the ledge grabbing range is easier. This lack of intensity also exists in general offstage gameplay due to the floatiness slowing the action/movements of aerial combat. The overall result is a slower paced game. Whilst at first these effects seem harmless, one must remember that the offstage game of Smash is one of the unique aspects that set it apart from any other fighter. In other words, it is VERY important to the overall Smash experience.

Shield

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzXhF36dJmE

Even though a shieldbreak (and zero-to-death combo) doesn't happen in Smash64 as often as many would believe, at least it was still something that could be achieved in an actual match. In Brawl, due to lack of shieldstun, this is highly unlikely to ever happen (unless you're up against a total noob). More importantly, the shield in general is too good in Brawl. It's a lot safer than previous games, to the point where the idea of punishing someone for unnecessary shielding pretty much no longer exists outside the form of grabs. This promotes defense, as it is FAR less risky than going on the offense.

Hitstun

http://www.youtube.com/user/KAsevenfive#p/search/2/6hmNU0b9L_8

Samus' jab and Mario's Dtilt (possibly more) are unsafe on hit. This is, without a doubt, poor game design. Why should anyone be punished for successfully landing a hit on the opponent? That too, in a game (and genre) where the core gameplay is to successfully land hits in order to KO the opponent and emerge as the victor. Not only that, but the general lack of hitstun (as well as the shield stuff from above) means that you can only punish (assuming you get such an opportunity) mistakes by a little amount. Enabling all characters the ability to punish effectively helps balance (look at Smash64). Lack of hitstun promotes defense as there is such little reward (if any) for attempting to go on the offense. The lack of punishment and more defense style gameplay leads to less damage racking within a certain amount of time when compared to the previous 2 games. This results in longer lasting stocks and a slower pace, especially when combined with the offstage factors.
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#110gsk6390Posted 4/28/2010 4:20:54 AM
Hitlag

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGeR6qW6OUI

The amount of hitlag (easy to see on Marth's tippered Fsmash, Falcon's sweetspotted Knee, and Zelda's sweetspotted Lightning Kicks) is high, making DI and SDI easier as well as generally slowing down the speed of actions too much. One should note that Melee had more powerful effect in DI and SDI, but a lot less hitlag. Smash64 has less hitlag than Brawl (but more than Melee), no "regular" DI but SDI still exists (more powerful in Western versions than the original JPN one). In the mentioned moves above, the game is literally screaming "DI NOW". Obviously, being able to DI/SDI easier allows for greater chances of survival. So, what's wrong with this? Well, combine easier DI with momentum cancelling, Brawl's more severe stale moves negation and the fact that gameplay is generally more focused on defense. You have (once again) longer lasting stocks creating a slower flow of battle. Also, combine this with the already mentioned lack of hitstun problems, shield problems and offstage problems. You now have various aspects of the gameplay with the exact same effect and result of creating a slow/defensive fighter.

L/Z cancelling

No vid

Something I wanna make clear first. Even though having to press a button at the right time increases the technical aspect of the game via timing and reactions, there is something more important than that with regards to this technique. You see, the effects of Z/L cancelling has 2 major and important end results for the game. One is the air game, the other is balance. There are reasons why Smash64 has the most/best air-based gameplay of the 3. This tech is one of them. In Smash64, it gave you zero landing lag for all 5 aerials, thus, promoting the use of aerials as there is great reward. This reward still exists in Melee, but to a lesser extent (half landing lag). In Brawl, we only have autocancelling. At first, it may seem it should create a similar effect of promoting the air game. But, it doesn't. Why? Well, it's restricted to only specific aerials. Not only that, but it can only be done by landing on certain frames of an aerial. Result? You're either forced to use an aerial at a specific height/timing just so you can get zero lag (assuming you need/want to use such an aerial with autocancelling properties) or you're forced to suffer non-reduced landing lag for using an aerial the way you wanted. In other words, the freedom and reward of playing in the air has been reduced. Landing lag reduces follow-ups, which when combined with lack of hitstun, reduces the ability to capitalise on punishment. Low amounts of landing lag increase the chance to capitalise on punishment, which helps make the game more aggressive, faster paced and even helps with certain balance issues (look at Smash64) as it creates an almost even quality amongst characters via everyone having the ability to enjoy reduced lag and increased potential followups (obviously, some are still better than others). The air game itself is a unique aspect of the Smash series that (along with the offstage game, seeing as how the 2 are connected) set it apart from other fighting games.


Smash64 and Melee are my favourite video games of all time. IMO, Brawl isn't a bad game, it's OK. Yeah, things got changed and are different about it from the previous 2 Smashes, but Smash64 and Melee are different to each other too. Not only that, but for a game to be good or great, it doesn't need to be the best in the series. It needs to, you know, actually be good or great. As you can see from my above rant/analysis, there are aspects of Brawl's gameplay that combine together to make it worse than its predecessors. I'm sure there are some subjective things in there. Also, other Smashers could do a FAR better job of explaining things :P
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