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Japanese vs American Tier List

#1PeeInMyPuddingPosted 10/5/2012 5:30:16 AM
Japanese

S+: Metaknight
S: Ice Climbers
A+: Olimar, Diddy, Falco, Snake, Fox
A: Pit, Wario, Marth, Dedede, Zero Suit Samus
B: Toon Link, Robot, Lucario, Zelda and Sheik, Game and Watch
C: Donkey Kong, Peach, Wolf, Kirby, Pikachu, Ike
D: Lucas, Mario, Sonic
E: Luigi, Bowser, Yoshi, Ness
F: Ganondorf, Pokemon Trainer
G: Captain Falcon, Link, Samus
H: Jigglypuff


American

S: Meta Knight
A: Olimar, Diddy Kong, Ice Climbers, Snake
B: Falco, Marth, Pikachu, Wario
C: Zero Suit Samus, Lucario, King Dedede, Toon Link
D: Wolf, Mr. Game & Watch, Fox, Peach, Pit
E: R.O.B., Kirby, Sheilda, Sonic, Donkey Kong, Ike, Sheik
F: Yoshi, Ness, Pokémon Trainer, Luigi
G: Lucas, Mario, Samus, Bowser, Captain Falcon
H: Jigglypuff, Link, Zelda, Ganondorf


The Japanese tier list is more accurate since they are better at Brawl than we are.
Agree? Disagree?

It's also worth noting that Japanese have only neutral stages to play on, so that's why Ice Climbers are second.

Though I feel Ice Climbers should be (and will be) second best in the American tier list despite the different stages.
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#2ThatPersonGuyPosted 10/5/2012 10:24:02 AM
Ganon above Falcon? Lucas above Ness?
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#3BlacknGold86Posted 10/5/2012 12:19:34 PM
If I am in error in any part of this post I apologize as I'm not the most knowledgeable on tier structure, but what you said about JP caught my eye.

So From what I understand tiers are based on ABSOLUTE TOP player ability. (Which I have a hard time comprehending since I formly believe in evolution),So how can our (U.S.) Tiers be different? Is it a regional ranking instead of worldwide? But anyway my main beef here is I've heard my entire life that japanese gamers are better than us and I hate it.

For instance look at the mario franchise. "Lost levels" was mario 2 in japan. Since it was dubbed "too hard" for american audiences we got a crap a** reskin of doki-doki panic instead.

But when Mario all stars came out on SNES I beat lost levels 1-1 through D-4 at 12 years old. WTF?

But anyway back to topic.

I consider tiers a matter of opinion. Sure they're applicable to who they're meant for, but I believe in my heart that no character is truly "better" than another, its the competitors who win matches. So maybe that's why JP is different?
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#4I_eat_tablesPosted 10/5/2012 12:34:58 PM
BlacknGold86 posted...
If I am in error in any part of this post I apologize as I'm not the most knowledgeable on tier structure, but what you said about JP caught my eye.

So From what I understand tiers are based on ABSOLUTE TOP player ability. (Which I have a hard time comprehending since I formly believe in evolution),So how can our (U.S.) Tiers be different? Is it a regional ranking instead of worldwide?

...

I consider tiers a matter of opinion. Sure they're applicable to who they're meant for, but I believe in my heart that no character is truly "better" than another, its the competitors who win matches. So maybe that's why JP is different?


The main difference isn't skill between JPN and NSTC (or PAL for that matter), it's the rules differences. There's no obvious best ruleset, so both communities have developed their own set of competitve rules, and this leads to some characters being better or worse than others. For example, one side might allow a few more stages which a particular character is very good/bad on, and that character would thus rise/fall in the relevant tier list.

As for the second bit, some characters are inheritly better than others. Do a quick Spearman's Rank correlation coefficient on those ratings, you get something that I'm pretty sure is statistically significant at a 5% level, probably 1% and possibly even more than that. In other words, both Japan and NSTC tier lists have decided on the most part on a very similar list. There are differences, but for the most part, both communities have the same opinions. How likely do you think that is if it all comes down to the player? I'll tell you, it's pretty darn unlikely. The differences between most characters are quite small, but they do exist.
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#5ViviffTheGreatPosted 10/5/2012 1:51:38 PM
BlacknGold86 posted...
If I am in error in any part of this post I apologize as I'm not the most knowledgeable on tier structure, but what you said about JP caught my eye.

So From what I understand tiers are based on ABSOLUTE TOP player ability. (Which I have a hard time comprehending since I formly believe in evolution),So how can our (U.S.) Tiers be different? Is it a regional ranking instead of worldwide? But anyway my main beef here is I've heard my entire life that japanese gamers are better than us and I hate it.

For instance look at the mario franchise. "Lost levels" was mario 2 in japan. Since it was dubbed "too hard" for american audiences we got a crap a** reskin of doki-doki panic instead.

But when Mario all stars came out on SNES I beat lost levels 1-1 through D-4 at 12 years old. WTF?

But anyway back to topic.

I consider tiers a matter of opinion. Sure they're applicable to who they're meant for, but I believe in my heart that no character is truly "better" than another, its the competitors who win matches. So maybe that's why JP is different?


I think the analogy I've been using lately for people is this: Characters in a game like this are tools for the player to use to accomplish a task. That we can all agree on. So let's say I enter a hole-digging contest against LeBron James, a world-class "freak" athlete. Under any equal condition he slaughters me. However he's given a fire-ax to use, and I get a standard spade shovel. I would win, because my tool is FAR better for the task. You can accomplish the task with either, but one of them really sucks to do it with. So think of characters in the game like different sized shovels. Meta Knight is a large shovel made of space-age material that never dulls or gets broken, and Ganon is....the tiny plastic shovel that comes in a child's beach set.
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#6lavajciPosted 10/5/2012 2:04:51 PM
While I'm not sure I agree with tier-lists, I will say that that was an excellent explanation/analogy.
#7PeeInMyPudding(Topic Creator)Posted 10/5/2012 2:11:05 PM
I_eat_tables posted...

The main difference isn't skill between JPN and NSTC (or PAL for that matter), it's the rules differences.


I'm not sure how true this is.

The Japanese have reached different conclusions about which characters are good and which are bad. At least, that's what it seems to me. Even if we had identical rule sets, I don't think the tiers would be the same, or even close to the same.
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#8MachDragonPosted 10/5/2012 2:20:36 PM
Tier lists are rendered obsolete by weak, pathetic clones

aHappySacka posted...
Which includes:

Mario: for being a (weak, pathetic) clone of Luigi
Diddy Kong: for being a (weak, pathetic) clone of Donkey Kong
Lucas: for being a (weak, pathetic) clone of Ness
Toon Link: for being a (weak, pathetic) clone of Link
Zelda: for being a (weak, pathetic) clone of Shiek
Donkey Kong: for being a (weak, pathetic) clone of Diddy Kong
Red Alloy: for being a (weak, pathetic) clone of Yellow Alloy
Sonic: for being a (weak, pathetic) clone of Meta Knight
Captain Fa- just joking :D

that is all.
#9I_eat_tablesPosted 10/5/2012 3:05:20 PM
PeeInMyPudding posted...
I_eat_tables posted...

The main difference isn't skill between JPN and NSTC (or PAL for that matter), it's the rules differences.


I'm not sure how true this is.

The Japanese have reached different conclusions about which characters are good and which are bad. At least, that's what it seems to me. Even if we had identical rule sets, I don't think the tiers would be the same, or even close to the same.


Well, they're already very close to being the same. Yes, even with identical rulesets I suspect there'd be a few variations, but much less then there are now. The rulesets really do make a big difference.
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#10BlackG0ldPosted 10/5/2012 5:39:08 PM
Japanese tier lists are based almost entirely on tournament results, while the BBR tier list is a combination of Matchup Ratios, tournament results and the BBR members personal opinions.

That's why in Japan Fox and Pit are so high while Pikachu is so low, because they have two great Pit users (Masashi and Earth) and one great Fox player (Yui) while they have no great Pikachu players (Hayase/Ganbarani only used him for a few months, and his best win in that time period was with MK)

Plus, the different ruleset and, more importantly, stagelist does make a huge difference.
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