Comparison: Cybernetics VS Human - Defender

#1Xero-KillPosted 9/4/2008 8:00:53 AM
OK, as promised in my previous thread for discussing the differences, I have now played both to level 50 and I am ready to offer my thoughts.

Please note that these are just my opinions, I am not trying to sway your minds or insinuate that by choosing one or the other you are wrong for it. This is just for reference sake, for those that may want to know which way to go.

Cybernetics

Well, as we all know this is the most popular tree. Very few seem to go down the Human path so this will most likely contain the most amount of solid information.

Their elite armor is touted as being the "cooler" of the two and I do not disagree. They use a 2h Sword which strikes me as a little bit strange since the defender tends to lean towards the hammer, but none the less, that is what they get.

The cybernetics path offers one of the most coveted abilities at its base which is +10% to total armor. This is one of the main reason most people will choose the cyber path. This is certainly a good skill to have, but I would say that after a certain point... more defense is just redundant. In my personal opinion, what good is staying alive forever if it takes that lifetime to kill an enemy?

The cannon is another "bonus" for the cyber path, however I do not find them useful when compared to the range, speed, and grenade launcher of the rifle... so for me this is a moot point.

Now the cybernetics path claims to the "Damage oriented path" but I find that statement to be lacking. While it will ensure you get bigger hits, it offers nothing to overcome the cumbersome movement of the Defender.

Human

This is my personal preference for a few reasons.

My number one reason is the 4th combo level. The damage and speed bonus gained at CL4 is just plain awesome. It is at this point that the Defender really transforms into a weapon of pure assault, second only to the Berserker. Now some might think that this would leave you with no defense... well that just isn't true. My human defender is just as tough as my cyber defender, perhaps even more so because dead enemies don't hit back.

The loss of the +10% total AC is made up for by the elite shield/hammer combo that grants 10% DMG Reduction and the fact that you can move at lightning speeds, making it nigh impossible to get hit. With attack speed capped, this guy moves like a berserker, hits like a truck, and takes a hit 2nd only to a cyber defender, but not by much.

Also of note is that the defense loss is even further offset by the Spider Recharge reduction skill offered under the Human tree, thus making the DMG Absorb spider available more often.

Summary

I was going to go into much greater detail, but most of us already know the specifics of each tree. I wanted to give a point of view from the other side of the fence since there are practically no human defenders on these boards. So for those of you that think the cyber defender is the only way to go... think again. The human matches his defense with his offense making him the single most BALANCED class in the game, hands down.

Solid defense, solid offense, great speed, long range, faster spider skills, and just plain sick.
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On a mountain of skulls in a castle of pain, I sat on a throne of blood. What was will be, what is will be no more. Now is the season of evil.
#2CrocadocPosted 9/4/2008 8:28:48 AM
agreed.
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#3Lone989Posted 9/4/2008 8:40:49 AM
nice post there might get a lvl 50 defender (human) myself after my cybernetic one
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#4FenixStrykPosted 9/4/2008 8:58:49 AM
The main reason you prefer Human over Cyber seems to be because you dislike Cannons.
The main reason I prefer Cyber over Human is because I am madly in love with Laser Cannons.
If she had a tighter chamber, LC would be my robotic mistress. She takes time to warm up, sure, but once she's at her peak, MAN! She is just BURSTING with... uh, anyway.

Cyber shouldn't be chosen for the extra armor. Hell, you shouldn't choose it because of the Red Set either. You choose Cyber for the Cannons, and you go even further away from the mold by going Left Tree instead of Center and using/abusing those Laser Cannon/Ballistic buffs (and the Ice Spider bomb as well IMO)

My Red Sword might not give me what I need in the long run, and the recommended Red Set might not be buffing the right skills, but with a full Aesir/M&S set customized with even the generic Orange Runes, I have more potential than any Humafender out there.

Never question LC. She's a firecracker, but if you know which buttons to press, she's exactly what you need.
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#5Xero-Kill(Topic Creator)Posted 9/4/2008 9:04:42 AM
Actually the cannons have nothing to do with my choices. I simply state that as a "bonus" I find them wanting. I use my ballistics as a backup, not a primary weapon. For that reason, I prefer the rifle with its grenade launcher because it will dispatch large groups much faster. The laser cannon has a powerful secondary indeed, but it is very inaccurate and burns out very fast. The launcher can be fired off at 1 grenade per second give or take without any reload augmentation. That makes it far superior as a tool... but maybe not as cool.

My main reason for siding with Humans is the speed and damage, plain and simple. The main drawback to the defender for me was the extremely slow melee speeds, and the human side addresses that issue in spades. My point on the cannons was simply that they are not a good enough incentive since rifles are far superior in form and function... if not in style and design.
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On a mountain of skulls in a castle of pain, I sat on a throne of blood. What was will be, what is will be no more. Now is the season of evil.
#6FenixStrykPosted 9/4/2008 9:19:19 AM
I personally never found my Cyberfender lacking in "speed and damage". The trash mobs still die in one, MAYBE two hits, and when you fight the tougher ones (Elites, Missile/Spear Assault mobs, Shield mobs, Trolls, and... those Crab Archer guys), you whip out your Laser Cannon to use the secondary fire, spam your Fierce Attacks, or just juggle the interfering trash (or juggle/aerial the Shield/Assault mob).

As for a Rifle having more range, that depends. Cyber has access to a Ballistic Ammo buff and a Ballistic Range buff. I find that's more than enough to out-range a Troll's Hammer. I don't need more than that.

A sword can't go straight into the fray and kill trash mobs by spamming an AoE Juggle like a hammer can, but its Fierce Attack can be spammed roughly twice as fast. TBQH, the only "advantage" I see for a Humafender is that its Red Set is a H&S instead of a Sword, and it gets a fourth Combo Point to work with. I don't see that as trumping an LC.

Both are good choices, but I prefer Cyberfenders. Try not to go around touting "Cyberfenders don't use Hammers" just because the Red Set uses a sword. It's honestly not extremely hard to find a good Orange Hammer with a clean slate. Not harder than finding a Red, anyway.
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#7KkhainePosted 9/4/2008 9:21:10 AM
You point is exactly what I tough it would be. For a Cyber to work ok you need to keep it at combo lvl3 all the time.
Lvl4 gives you extra speed added to the fact that human tree boost your speed with combos. Therefore in terms of speed (thats what you wanted to add to your defender) human definetly wins.
As for loss of defense. Its there but its probably unoticeable. Defender just dont die wether they are human or cyber. They will just die if you make mistakes or if you play a map that wont drop a heal orb over 3 tokens. But with loot chances boosted you usually leave rooms with 2-3 unused orbs on the ground.
#8Xero-Kill(Topic Creator)Posted 9/4/2008 9:37:48 AM
This is why I played both to 50 and had several runs under each one. I didn't want to make a comparison based on a whim or a lower level of either one. Don't get me wrong, the cyberfender does good damage, but compared to the humanfender... well it doesn't compare. The LC alone certainly doesn't make up for the overall damage differential. When I play as my cyber I use a LC too, as it is the best cannon of choice with plasma coming in a close second.

However, the point that I wanted to illustrate is that the Human defender lacks nothing when compared to the Cyber defender as so many people have stated. There are dozens of "What should I pick?" threads out there and everyone keeps saying the same thing. They say that the Human path makes the defender squishy and the only road to victory is through the cyber... which is just plain wrong. The human carries about 95% of the defensive potential of the cyber but more than outshines in the damage department. If you have the time I would STRONGLY suggest you level up a human and see just what that extra combo level does, or how strong that extra speed makes you.

I was simply floored by the contrast. There is nothing completely wrong with the Cyber defender, but they are slanted towards the defensive side, but gain nothing in terms of offensive potential. For those that are looking for a great balance of both... human wins it, and whatever bonus you get from your laser canon is more than offset with grenade spamming.

Also as I stated the Human path also grants a spider recharge ability that of course stacks with runes... thus further augmenting the humans defensive abilities since they can have their spider out more often... which is the ultimate defense. That alone more than makes up for the 10% armor bonus, which is really the only true advantage that the cyber defender carries. Everything else is dead equal or nominal at best. That being the case, why not take that nominal difference and turn it into a massive bonus on the offensive side?
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On a mountain of skulls in a castle of pain, I sat on a throne of blood. What was will be, what is will be no more. Now is the season of evil.
#9FenixStrykPosted 9/4/2008 9:55:35 AM
The HumaFender is more well-rounded, I suppose. It gets a faster melee attack speed, its Red Set uses a Hammer (IMO the best melee weapon type), better Ruiners overall, more spammable Spiders, and extra/faster Combo Point generation. Their melee is clearly stronger, and it has a lot of utilities that inevitably double as "defense".

However, I've never been one for well-roundedness. I choose a class to min/max its advantages and disregard the weaknesses. For a Cyberfender, that's LCs and Armor. I decided to skip fully min/maxing Armor since that meant going Middle Tree for that last 10% and using the Red Set (thus using a Sword), instead just making a custom armor set (Altruist with all Orange Runes is a good starter for anyone).

Does my melee compete to a HumaFenders'? Not entirely, but it's good enough to get the job done. Berserkers and Champs can have their super-powered melee/Ruiners as far as I'm concerned. My Defender, on the other hand, will tank mobs and obliterate targets with absurd LC DPS.

There's a playstyle for everyone, and I do agree that for a beginner that isn't 100% sure what they want, a HumaFender is a better choice since it is more versatile. I, however, will not personally use one.
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#10Xero-Kill(Topic Creator)Posted 9/4/2008 10:51:19 AM
I am curious about one thing... you seem absolutely fixated on this whole LC business and yet you picked the worst class for using said weapons. They have an innate -15% to ballistics damage and very slow reload times... and if you are all about "Min/Max" then you have picked either the worst class for ballistics or the worst weapon for a defender.

If this was really about min/max and your fascination with the LC then why not be a Cyber Commando? That is a class that can "min/max" for a LC, and with that kind of output they don't have much need of defense. Even aside from that, you can still get decent amounts of HP/DEF on a Commando if you slot for it. To say you are min/max'n and then saying that you only choose the Cyber Defender for its cannon use is a contradiction. You are playing to the classes weakest abilities and ignoring its strengths... confuse much?

Now what I am talking about with the human defender IS min/max.... I just don't think you quite understand the term. When you "min/max" you are trying to MAXimize your strengths with a MINimum of loss. That is what this build is all about... you LOSE practically nothing and GAIN a great deal.
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On a mountain of skulls in a castle of pain, I sat on a throne of blood. What was will be, what is will be no more. Now is the season of evil.