Assassin or Rogue (with builds)?

#1V_EdgePosted 5/25/2013 12:27:32 AM
So I'm having a tough time deciding which I should go for with my Thief when he gets up to 25. I haven't seen either one in action, but from looking at their talents, I'd assume Assassins' damage is more smooth across the board while Rogues' damage is spikier and more luck-based, as a few of their talents are proc-based. I've got some ideas for builds either way:

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Assassin - http://www.ro2base.com/build/generator/assassin#zmKv2v2HUvCCCv/41.41.1.1.1/0.0.0.0.0

I'm 99% sure this is the cookie-cutter for Assassins, and one I posted in an earlier thread. Since he doesn't rely on things that reset his cooldowns or give him free hits, his rotation's going to vary less and his opener is going to be simpler than the Rogue's, but while he'll be doing less damage initially, it'll be much smoother. With this build AoE isn't even an option; he just focuses on damaging whatever the tank happens to be smacking around, whether it's a boss or a simple mob. He'd open by using Shadow Assault to get in the mobs then go into a basic rotation:

Shadow Strike/Grimtooth > Double Attack to 5 CP > Shadow Explosion/Deadly Blow

The only point when Grimtooth comes into play would be if there's 3+ mobs, and only if Shadow Strike's on cooldown. If it's not going to be earning him its full 3 Combo Points, there's no reason to use it. I could see someone trading points from Poisoning Weapon to it and then it might be worth using when there's two mobs, but with my current build, there's no real point to using it beyond the points it can generate. Of course if both are on cooldown, skip right on over to the Deadly Blow spam to 5 CP, then Shadow Explosion if available or Deadly Blow otherwise.

The stats are simple enough. With so much crit coming from his abilities he may be able to cut some Agi and rock a 51/27 build, but I kinda like this version better.

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Rogue - http://www.ro2base.com/build/generator/rogue#zmKv2vUHlAvCCC/40.36.1.1.18/0.0.0.0.0

As I said, I figure the damage with a Rogue is gonna be a lot more bursty than an Assassin, thanks to procs from Unstable Doping and Combo Mastery and the availability of Dirty Plan. I went for Rolling Cutter so he could have some AoE, but it's pretty damned low in damage compared to Warriors and the Magician classes, so I may just pull the points off that to put into Duel Stab and/or Gangster Paradise instead. I'm not sure if poison can be spread with Rolling Cutter, but that'd be an excellent excuse to use it for groups of three or four mobs at least. Opening against boss mobs I suspect would be something like:

Mark of Death > Duel Stab > Double Attack to 5 CP > Moonlight Dance > Deadly Blow (if CM procs, repeating) > Dirty Plan > Moonlight Dance > Deadly Blow (if CM procs, repeating)

If Moonlight Dance procs Combo Mastery, spam Deadly Blow until CM doesn't proc. Use Dirty Plan to get points back and reset Moonlight Dance's cooldown, use it again, and then Deadly Blow if CM procs until it doesn't. This could be an infinite chain of hurt with enough luck, and even without any luck it's still two Moonlight Dances with a fair chunk of damage preceding. While Dirty Plan is on cooldown, I can fall back on Duel Stab > Double Attack to 5 CP > Deadly Blow (repeat until CM doesn't proc). Of course I'll need to buy like every potion in Rune-Midgarts to make sure he keeps the bonus from Unstable Doping up, or at least keep my Alchemist busy enough to keep up with his drinking habit.

I gave him a little extra Vit in his stats because that'll boost how much potions heal him for just a touch, and that could add an extra few Attack Power with unstable Doping. I'm not entirely sure how much it'd add though; if the return is negligible I could easily just stick to 41/41/1/1/1 or 49/31/1/1/1 or some similar Str/Ag spread.

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So. Opinions?
#2TerotrousPosted 6/6/2013 12:51:27 PM(edited)
This is super old but I was going to post about Rogues so I might as well do it here.


Rolling Cutter is absolutely valueless. It does no damage, and serves only to draw adds to the Rogue, which you don't want since Rogues aren't supposed to be tanking.

Dual Stab also sucks, don't put any more than 1 point in that. It exists to build 2 charges and that's it. Double Attack is how you deal damage.


This is what I've come up with for my Rogue, it's a hybrid DPS / PVP build.

http://www.ro2base.com/build/generator/rogue#zCvvxvx6v3CCCC/41.36.1.1.16/0.0.0.0.0


First of all, you definitely want Smoke Bomb. Any time combo mastery procs, toss down Smoke Bomb and then use Moonlight Dance for ludicrous damage, since hiding state doubles the damage it does to a completely insane 220%. This also gives you Meteor Assault, which even at level 1 is superior to Rolling Cutter level 3 (however, the only time you will ever use it is in PVP, to reveal hiding enemies). You also get Dark Illusion, which is a great skill for PvE, you can actually use both Dagger Throwing and this skill if you're far enough away to do huge damage as you start a battle (and look insanely cool in the process).


Probably the most controversial thing about my build is Crescent Moon, which a lot of people think is useless because it doesn't deal big damage. However, 5 second stun every 20 seconds is actually pretty crazy, that means a full 25% of the time your opponents can't act at all, and if that Crescent Moon activates Combo Mastery, it's Smoke Bomb and then good night, without the ability to defend yourself against double damage Moonlight Dance in any way you're probably toast in PVP.


You'll also probably notice instantly that my Deadly Blow is not maxed, but that's because I won't be using it often between Gangster Paradise and Crescent Moon. The only time it will be seeing use is versus bosses (who resist stun), and even then, the damage increase from maxing this move actually isn't huge, it does 52% at level 1 with 5 charges, and 60% at level 5. That's really not a huge increase for the points. Similarly, if you can only max one of Combo Training and Combo Mastery, Combo Mastery is clearly far, far superior, it's a 6% chance to gain 5 free combo charges, whereas Combo training is a 10% chance to gain one additional point that you may not even be able to use if you've already got 5.


The only thing I'm not sure on is how many points to put in Deadly Plan vs Gangster Paradise. For the number of points I have left, I think this is optimal, This way I get 2 Gangster Paradises every 180 seconds, and as soon as I use Deadly Plan I can do another one. Actually, one more level in there probably would have been ideal, as that allows 3 uses per 180 seconds, the point would probably be best taken from Mark of Genocide, but raiding parties get really uppity if your buff isn't maxed. I suppose one point off poisoning weapon is also possible, though that last point ups the damage by 2%.


I generally agree with your stat distribution but I think mine is slightly better. This way, all of your points are the last ones before the price goes up.
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#3V_Edge(Topic Creator)Posted 6/6/2013 3:10:38 PM
One thing I can say right off the bat is that I have zero interest in PVP content. Like, none whatsoever. That's why I'm a bit iffy about taking Crescent Moon; I don't think it'd work on boss mobs, and trash mobs die too quickly for the stun to be of any real value. Similarly, while having a shorter cooldown for Gangster Paradise would take a bit more pressure off the healer, I'm going to be popping the highest Red Potions I have every ten seconds anyway, so I don't see a point in what essentially becomes a defensive cooldown used when the boss uses unavoidable high damage. I also want to keep Dirty Plan maxed out; this means I'll be able to add Smoke Bomb into my burst damage combo, turning it into:

Hide (if not in combat) > Dark Illusion (if Hiding) > Mark of Death (if not already applied) > Dual Stab > Double Attack (to 5 CP) > Smoke Bomb (if not on CD) > Moonlight Dance > Deadly Blow (if Combo Mastery procs) > Dirty Plan > Smoke Bomb > Moonlight Dance > Deadly Blow (if Combo Mastery procs)

Meanwhile, my regular attacking pattern is going to be closer to this:

Hide (if not in combat) > Dark Illusion (if Hiding) > Dual Stab (if not on cooldown) > Double Attack (to 5 CP) > Moonlight Dance (if not on cooldown) > Deadly Blow (if ML on cooldown or Combo Mastery procs)

I'm not entirely sure of Mark of Death works the same as Hunter's Mark in WoW where it won't aggro a target, so if it doesn't aggro, that'll go before Dark Illusion in the burst sequence so Dark Illusion can benefit.

What I think I might end up doing, since I want to make that burst damage more regular, is something like this:

http://www.ro2base.com/build/generator/rogue#zAvvxvPHvUvCCC/40.36.1.1.18/0.0.0.0.0

I'm not sure whether I'll get more use out of Deadly Blow this way or not, honestly. However, it does seem unlikely I'll be using it every four seconds, and that's what it'd take for its extra 6% damage to overcome Poisoning Weapon's extra 3% per DoT tick. Since the damage per Combo Point is unaffected and I won't be using it below 5 Combo Points anyway, it's worth it I'm thinking. This also gives Smoke Bomb a 2 min cooldown so it'll be off the CD just after Deadly Plan (since it's getting used immediately after), allowing it to be up every time I'm about to pull out the burst damage.

As for stats... pfft. We're only different by one less point Strength and two more points Vit on my side. 2 Attack Power and Parry versus 12 HP and... what, 0.08% more healing from potions? Not enough of a difference to care IMO.
#4Oni SeraphPosted 6/6/2013 8:03:56 PM(edited)
Hide (if not in combat) > Dark Illusion (if Hiding) > Mark of Death (if not already applied) > Dual Stab > Double Attack (to 5 CP) > Smoke Bomb (if not on CD) > Moonlight Dance > Deadly Blow (if Combo Mastery procs) > Dirty Plan > Smoke Bomb > Moonlight Dance > Deadly Blow (if Combo Mastery procs)

I don't think it works that way. Unless they changed something hiding removes combo points, you need CM to proc to do that.
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#5TerotrousPosted 6/7/2013 6:34:03 AM(edited)
V_Edge posted...
One thing I can say right off the bat is that I have zero interest in PVP content. Like, none whatsoever. That's why I'm a bit iffy about taking Crescent Moon; I don't think it'd work on boss mobs, and trash mobs die too quickly for the stun to be of any real value.

It's true that it doesn't work on bosses, but I think you underestimate its value on trash mobs. 5 seconds of not taking damage is pretty big, it can drastically reduce how often you have to heal. It also does work on Dungeon Mobs, and some of them are pretty tough.

That being said, it really is a PVP skill first and foremost. But with WoE on its way, I think PVP is about to become pretty important.


Similarly, while having a shorter cooldown for Gangster Paradise would take a bit more pressure off the healer, I'm going to be popping the highest Red Potions I have every ten seconds anyway

Actually, there's a trick that makes this far cheaper. After you initiate Unstable Doping, the strength of any subsequent potions you use to maintain it does not matter, any potion at all will reset the timer but it doesn't recalculate the boost. So what you'll be doing is using your strongest potions first, then popping trash potions afterwards unless you really need the healing. If you're an Alchemist, you can make the weakest potions in ludicrous quantities for practically nothing, they don't even require any Firmament Essence.


so I don't see a point in what essentially becomes a defensive cooldown used when the boss uses unavoidable high damage. I also want to keep Dirty Plan maxed out; this means I'll be able to add Smoke Bomb into my burst damage combo, turning it into:

Well, it is 60% healing over 10 seconds, which is pretty massive. Red pots cannot match that level of health restoration.


What I think I might end up doing, since I want to make that burst damage more regular, is something like this:

http://www.ro2base.com/build/generator/rogue#zAvvxvPHvUvCCC/40.36.1.1.18/0.0.0.0.0

I wouldn't max smoke bomb, keep in mind you can reset its cooldown with Deadly Plan, and you can only attack out of it when Combo Mastery procs, which isn't all that often (otherwise, hiding removes your combo points, as Oni Seraph said). Those two points should really be used to max Poisoning Weapon and one more for Gangster Paradise.

At that point, I think what you have is probably optimal for PvE. Maybe one point out of Combo Training and into Gangster Paradise.
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#6TerotrousPosted 6/7/2013 8:56:20 AM
Actually, I just thought of something of potential importance. Even though Crescent Moon may not work on bosses, it WILL work on their Adds, and the DPS's job is usually to kill adds. Limiting their offensive capabilities may help the healer keep the tank alive.
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#7V_Edge(Topic Creator)Posted 6/7/2013 4:01:37 PM
Ah, I was under the impression you'd keep Combo Points regardless. Is there some known reason why your Combo Points stay on when Combo Mastery procs? Perhaps that particular buff keeps you in combat even though you're hidden? Also, the info about Unstable Doping helps; that means I get to keep two or three stacks of the best Reds I can get, and a few stacks of vendor Reds or Purples to keep it going. I think I read that the buff duration is 3 min?

As for using Crescent Moon on adds, I can somewhat see the point there if there's some sort of dangerous add like something that'd heal or buff the boss just by being there, but on run-of-the-mill adds I'd imagine it more effective to burn them down rather than constantly stun them. Maybe if Crescent Moon could hit multiple mobs it'd be worth more to me, but as it stands, it seems like it's primarily PVP and utility, and perhaps something to help with soloing.

So, I'll instead be going with this:

Hiding > Dark Illusion/Mark of Death > Dual Stab > Double Attack (to 5 CP if needed) > Moonlight Dance > Dirty Plan > Smoke Bomb (if CM procced from Moonlight Dance) > Moonlight Dance > Deadly Blow (if CM procs again)

And while Dirty Plan is on cooldown:

Dual Stab > Double Attack (to 5 CP) > Moonlight Dance/Deadly Blow > Smoke Bomb (if CM procs and Smoke Bomb is off cooldown) > Moonlight Dance/Deadly Blow

Again, not sure if Mark of Death puts you in combat; if it does, it'd be used after Dark Illusion, but if not it'd come before. As for the general rotation, even with Smoke Bomb maxed it's getting used after Dirty Plan and has the same cooldown, so it probably won't be ready again until after Dirty Plan is up anyway, so that chunk probably will never come into play.

Seeing this, Smoke Bomb's value is somewhat diminished, so 1/3 does seem like enough. One point fills out Poisoning Weapon, the other... I dunno. Reducing Gangster Paradise to 100 sec cooldown seems kind of a waste to me since, like Smoke Bomb, it's going to get reset by Dirty Plan. I could go Dark Illusion, but that's only an 8% damage increase one time per fight (with Hiding bonus and auto-crit figured in) and there's never going to be a time mid-battle when I'll Smoke Bomb and prefer it over another move. I could go Hiding to improve my move speed while hidden, but I'm not likely to be in a situation where I'll need to move too far while Hiding. Honestly there's no worthwhile options IMO, so I guess it can go into Gangster Paradise.

Or maybe I'll put it in Cross Impact.

...yeeeeeah, Gangster Paradise it is.
#8TerotrousPosted 6/7/2013 4:39:42 PM(edited)
Combo Mastery is actually a buff effect, much like Poisoning Weapon or whatever else, which causes your next skill to act like you have 5 points even if you have none. That's why it can work after Smoke Bomb, it dispels combo points but not buffs.


Also, some bosses have some really scary adds, like Giant Medra's Giant Crab. He hits at least as hard as the boss himself.
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#9TerotrousPosted 6/21/2013 10:16:11 AM
I've now been running several dungeons with my Rogue and Crescent Moon is indeed pretty useful. When you have like 3 people DPSing a mob, doing a deadly blow doesn't do much, but a Crescent Moon totally immobilizes the thing for 5 seconds and everyone benefits from that. It also does work on boss adds and is great for defending healers.
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#10TesseusPosted 7/3/2013 7:13:53 PM(edited)
Problem with crescent moon is it doesn't work in raids (the bosses are immune to CC)

Also mark of death kinda sucks, it only works on rogue skills (not everyone dmg like SEA)

I don't like moonlight dance either because you can do deadly blow + 2 double attacks in the same time for the same dmg (but you're not locked in one place) AND build 2 extra combo points so you'll end up doing higher dps.

I always top the DPS charts in raids

This is the build I used for getting full Colo gear (dark illusion really needs to be maxed to increase your chances of killstealing tremendously, without it maxed other classes have far better kill stealing than you)
http://www.ro2base.com/build/generator/rogue#H0CvCvmHv2vMC/51.27.1.1.3/22310543.22310543.22310543.22310543.22310543

And this is the build I use now that I have full colo since people always cry about not having maxed crit buff
http://www.ro2base.com/build/generator/rogue#H0vvxvmHv2vMC/51.27.1.1.3/22310543.22310543.22310543.22310543.22310543
I'm probably going to change my stat though to 33 str/33 agi/32 vit, so that I can have 6500hp unbuffed without VIP. Not sure until VIP expires since I might still be under even with the stat reset.

Didn't bother with the AoEs since they're terrible DPS, it's a joke % compared to the real AoE classes
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