Ultima Weapon.

#1SilvanNostyPosted 12/3/2009 8:44:28 PM
I don't really find any use to use the Ultima Weapon (I still think it's better named the Atma Weapon). Having to be at max HP constantly, to make it worthwhile seems like more of a hassle, than what it's worth. Has anyone on this Board extensively used the Ultima Weapon?
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#2TriforceSDPosted 12/3/2009 8:58:03 PM
I used it about as much as any typical weapon, but eventually bet it in the coliseum. I think you have to be Lv. 40 or above for it to really reach any high damage.

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Sometimes we must agree to disagree. Otherwise, we end up going in circles.
Hey! I share Locke's last name. Just maybe he is my long lost brother??
#3Arctic_BlastPosted 12/3/2009 10:18:28 PM
Ultima weapon uses a different formula for damage than most other weapons. It multiplies damage by the characters level, divides it by 64 and multiplies by the characters current HP % (may be a bit off by a few +1s in the formula, but close enough). So as a rule of thumb a character has at level 64 or above has a high enough level to offset the non HP related differences in damage. That doesn't account for the defense ignoring properties of the weapon, but good enough for a guestimation. Also makes it clear that Ultima weapon is pretty crappy at lower levels despite the defense ignoring capabilities.
Only time I've really used Ultima Weapon is messing around with overleveled characters dishing out as much damage as possible. I'd generally want a nice stat boost or (Mag) Evade from my weapon during the course of the game.
#4MickamaniaPosted 12/3/2009 10:41:40 PM
It's good for taking on Cactaurs if you are Terra, Locke or Celes. One smack can take it out.

Other than moments when I want to totally destroy things, yeah, it's not that useful. If both Terra and Celes are used as mages, they should be using either Lightbringer or Enhancer, Edgar has either a Dragoon setup or Drill/Chainsaw, and Locke has the Valiant Knife. The real sad thing about the Ultima Weapon is that when it does reach the point of dealing out sick damage, do you really need it?

Pre-Soul Shrine, you only have one Master's Scroll. Assuming an average level of 64 per character, you're better off either sticking the scroll on Setzer with Fixed Dice or (if you're one of those people) getting a duel Kazekiri setup on Cyan.

It is fantastic for the Soul Shrine though. Chances are you're only going through that thing to get some phat lewts and take on Kaiser again, it works well for clearing all non-Dragon's Den trash, including one of the Magic Urns. Other than that, there are other options, especially in the SNES one where assuming you did a regular game, you'd simply write off the weapon since leveling to 64 in that is just uh...overdoing it. A lot.

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#5MeepleLardiclePosted 12/4/2009 8:25:16 AM
Ultima Weapon is a pretty effective weapon at level 50 or so, providing you get two. Terra was able to break out over 10k damage vs. Kaiser thanks to it without Master's Scroll, which is noteworthy cause her magic caps at 9999 unless using Soul of Thamasa which there's only one.

Its a very niche weapon, but generally not very useful, sadly. It is, however, better than that Gladius you get betting it at the Colosseum.
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#6MeepleLardiclePosted 12/4/2009 8:30:12 AM
Oh, just want to dispel a rumor before its brought up.

Level 64 is *NOT* the point where Ultima Weapon "becomes good"; Arctic Blast thankfully did not say this, just said "this is when the level offsets the penalty" which is true.

Ultima Weapon, assuming max HP, actually out damages most weapons since the defense ignoring factor is that significant. Thing is, FF6 physicals aren't worth much for the most part. Weapons that beat it often have special qualities themselves; Lightbringer, Apocalypse, Ragnarok all have Automatic Crits, Valiant Knife ignores defense too and is EFFECTIVELY stronger until a certain level, BEFORE factoring in its Damage Bonus. Weapons that can hit weakness, if they're strong enough, may pass it as well.

At level 40, it does like 2000~ damage on Terra w/ no Esper Boosts; most weapons won't come anywhere near this. Those that do, again, have special damage boosting properties like I mentioned (but not limited to) above.

This is why I noted level 50; assuming an adequate HP score, the weapon does do good damage at level 50 (we're talking 5k or so); the penalty isn't offset, but that doesn't mean its damage is suddenly bad.
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#7Dreamer7542Posted 12/6/2009 5:58:10 AM
Lightbringer, Apocalypse, Ragnarok all have Automatic Crits, Valiant Knife ignores defense too and is EFFECTIVELY stronger until a certain level, BEFORE factoring in its Damage Bonus. Weapons that can hit weakness, if they're strong enough, may pass it as well.

Just want to add on a couple of things;

Lightbringer's biggest asset is not the auto criticals, but the defense boost - the auto criticals will stop the moment you run out of MP, so you'll need to use Osmose to get your MP back up. Same for Apocalypse and Ragnarok, I'm betting. Also, you have to make sure that the Lightbringer doesn't use Holy against holy-absorbing enemies, otherwise, you'll heal the enemy; Ragnarok has Flare, so that's less worriesome.

Valiant Knife is best if Locke's at a low HP, as opposed to the Ultima Weapon which encourages either constant healing or 255 defense, 128% magic evade. It's a good weapon, but really comes into greater power if you keep Locke lower on HP.

Ultima Weapon, as stated, ignores defense so it's good against Cactuars and any enemy that has a tight defense - one that comes to mind occurs early in the WoR - Vileplume (or something) - looks like a mess of vine-y tangles and thorns.

If, by some reason, you decide to overlevel, however, and give whoever is using the sword, the Master's Scroll and the Genji Glove (two Ultima Weapons works best), then you can do the max amount of damage short of an instant KO - 8 strikes of 9999; however, that is only if you overlevel which seems equivalent to the plague around here <_<


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#8espritduoPosted 12/6/2009 6:18:16 AM
People seem to underestimate how useful defense-ignoring attacks are in FFVI. Contrary to what may seem common sense, "high defense" enemies are not a rarity in FFVI. In fact, almost every enemy in the game can be considered a "high defense" enemy. A rating of 0 defense is almost unheard of in FFVI, and the average enemy will typically have a whopping 100 defense or so, which is no small amount. This significantly reduces pretty much all weapon attacks, and what this means is that weapons that ignore defense will do much, much more damage than their attack rating would lead you to believe. So a defense-ignoring weapon like the Ultima Weapon will typically outdamage any weapon at any level assuming you have full or close to full HP. And since most people don't just walk around dangerous areas low on HP, you're not going to find yourself in a situation where Ultima Weapon is a hindrance more than a help very often.

In short, Ultima Weapon is not just a "post-level 50" type of weapon, and should be used by whoever has the best strength stat in your current group pretty much at all times from the moment you get it until the end of the game. Of course, most abilities in this game are also defense ignoring, so as great as the Ultima Weapon is, special abilities will still outdamage it most of the time.
#9MeepleLardiclePosted 12/6/2009 10:40:25 AM
No, actually...

I was factoring in that "High Defense!" enemy factor. What you're failing to acknowledge is that unlike FF1-5, FF6 runs off DIVISION based defense, not Subtraction. Division based means that moves yield a constant damage reduction throughout the game, rather than "defense needs to raise to keep up."

100 Defense early in the game is equal to 100 defense late game; both yield roughly a 40% damage reduction compared to the base damage. So Ultima Weapon just ignores that reduction.
Contrast this to FF1-5, where 5 early game defense is more meaningful than 5 late game defense. This is how Subtraction vs. Division vary.

FF7 also used Division based, as does FF10 (FF10's was less straight forward, but effectively still division.) FF9 used subtraction, and it keeps the whole "Enemies have a constant value that doesn't raise" thing, so like FF1-5, you notice it less throughout the game, as you get stronger damage.

You have to keep in mind this:

100 Defense in FF6 sounds high and mighty...but its out of a 255 Max. That 255 Max is important since it illustrates just what the defense does, and how much reduction. If we look at FF7, the max is 511, I believe; that makes 100 Defense even worse there. FF6/7 work on a more reverse division, in that its not just damage/defense (like, say, Pokemon has), but rather, its damage * Defense relative to Max, so it really does have a consistent impact on damage.

Branching from that...

Ultima Weapon does about 2x~ more damage to enemies than a weapon of equivalent factors that does not ignore defense. That's the same boost as an Auto Crit weapon! Auto Crit Weapons also don't have to worry about losing HP either.

I had already factored in all this stuff in my comparison; Auto Crit offsets Defense Ignoring rather well given how FF6 represents things. The "100-150 defense norm" just means that Non Defense Ignoring Attacks are roughly half as strong as attacks that do ignore defense but have same stats (see Flare vs. Fira.) It means Defense Ignoring has a practical constant use, but not for the reason of "overcoming defense" barring a few niche scenarios, just means the factor on the attack can't be ignored like it can be in, say, FF5, where 5-10 defense enemies is the norm, and you just sort of mock it badly end game, outside of a few extreme tanks.

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#10TriforceSDPosted 12/6/2009 12:04:09 PM
I had sensed a percentage based, or as you put it, a division based method for determining the reduction due to defense. Until a year ago, I never knew you could "max" the defense stat. I would almost accept the fact that this makes for a more level playing field. No longer do you have off the wall differences in damage done to/from enemies.

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Sometimes we must agree to disagree. Otherwise, we end up going in circles.
Hey! I share Locke's last name. Just maybe he is my long lost brother??