So... Why all the hate for Kingdom Hearts?

#11MagnaderAlphaPosted 2/17/2013 5:38:06 PM
Nomura makes up the universe as he goes along, convoluting it more with new "concepts", that IMO, doesn't make it more interesting or smarter.

For me, the first KH was a great game, but KH2 aboard more needless concepts, and everything else, even MORE. Actually, in a way, it's very much like what Toriyama is doing with the Lightning Saga, as the brainstorming sessions, I would think, goes something like this:

"Okay, time to make a sequel. First and foremost, let's think of interesting new ideas to add to make the world more richer, and how they actually fit in isn't important right now. We'll use a whole bunch of mending tape later on, but the whole idea of NEW THINGS is top priority!!

NOMURA
"There was Heartless in the first one, and now... I got it.... NOBODIES!!! Soooo brilliant!".

TORIYAMA
"FFXIII-2... let's mysteriously make Lightning disappear and become the protector of Etro. She'll be some cool, hot badass knight chick, in old school armor!! Why she's there, let's come up with that later. Also, let's do a time travel angle!!! Maybe a hero from the future goes back in time to help Serah! Why? That's not important right now either. The significance is never important until the very end of the writing process. Everybody knows writing is about placing all your ideas on paper then drawing lines to connect them to each other during the end of the session!".

Now I'm not saying all sequels aren't with their "new ideas", but when it gets to the point that logic behind a world is thrown for a loop over and over again, it's almost ludicrous.
#12ValorZraykPosted 2/17/2013 7:39:21 PM
MagnaderAlpha posted...

Ehhh........
I think you're being a little unfair. KH's story isn't without its flaws, but more often than not new idea's fit very nicely with old idea's. For example in 3D Young Xehanort's background is perfectly foreshadowed by Ansem's "take a look at this tiny place" speech in KH1. Most writers would not be able to make a plot twist in the 7th entry in a series heavily foreshadowed by a small detail from the first game in the series, without planning it out ahead of time.

What I'm saying is unfortunately Nomura doesn't plan stories in advance, but he does a far better job of making things up as he goes than most writers do.
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#13ExtremeLight(Topic Creator)Posted 2/17/2013 7:48:14 PM
MagnaderAlpha posted...
]"Okay, time to make a sequel. First and foremost, let's think of interesting new ideas to add to make the world more richer, and how they actually fit in isn't important right now. We'll use a whole bunch of mending tape later on, but the whole idea of NEW THINGS is top priority!!

NOMURA
"There was Heartless in the first one, and now... I got it.... NOBODIES!!! Soooo brilliant!".
The concept of nobodies is much more than simply the name. The whole idea was that with out the heart or body the soul become an empty shell.

TORIYAMA
"FFXIII-2... let's mysteriously make Lightning disappear and become the protector of Etro. She'll be some cool, hot badass knight chick, in old school armor!! Why she's there, let's come up with that later. Because she was dragged there by the darkness (KH reference!) and decide to protect Etro. Also, let's do a time travel angle!!! Maybe a hero from the future goes back in time to help Serah! Why? To save time and change the future. That's not important right now either. The significance is never important until the very end of the writing process. Everybody knows writing is about placing all your ideas on paper then drawing lines to connect them to each other during the end of the session!".

Now I'm not saying all sequels aren't with their "new ideas", but when it gets to the point that logic behind a world is thrown for a loop over and over again, it's almost ludicrous.


... I just simipfy the entire plot of 13-2 with my bolded...
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#14PostDisasterPosted 2/17/2013 8:32:11 PM
ValorZrayk posted...
MagnaderAlpha posted...

Ehhh........
I think you're being a little unfair. KH's story isn't without its flaws, but more often than not new idea's fit very nicely with old idea's. For example in 3D Young Xehanort's background is perfectly foreshadowed by Ansem's "take a look at this tiny place" speech in KH1. Most writers would not be able to make a plot twist in the 7th entry in a series heavily foreshadowed by a small detail from the first game in the series, without planning it out ahead of time.

What I'm saying is unfortunately Nomura doesn't plan stories in advance, but he does a far better job of making things up as he goes than most writers do.


See, this is why I can't stand KH now. It'e the fact that they DO take such....subtle and at times trivial details and try to make an ark out of it.

Young Xehanort? really? Like this game needed MOAR devisions of characters that already exists. (Sora (Ventus in Sora)-Roxas from Sora-Xion from....god knows)

I like to think I have a clear understanding of the plot...and I hate it. It's so needlessly convoluted. It over thinks itself and it shows and it suffers from that.

The first entry was so simple in plot and I think that's what holds its charm. Now it's a hot ratchet mess.
#15joegt123Posted 2/17/2013 9:44:16 PM
Crappy writing.

Emoness that puts cloud and squall both to shame.

Otherwise I like it well enough. Largely for the gameplay what with action rpgs being so rare. Especially back in the day. Story just got cluster****ed after 2.
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#16Lelouch71Posted 2/17/2013 10:32:32 PM
Ecclesiastes273 posted...
zombie_basher13 posted...
Wanna get into more specifics why you think there's a lot of hate for it?

.

KH is more or less established as one of the most solid IPs SE works with, especially with the Lightning Saga/Versus mess these days. I played KH1, KH:COM, KH2, and KH:BBS, and they were all very good games. If anything, KH has evaded most of the SE hate.


Yeah if you ignore the convoluted mess of a story. The gameplay is very solid and the character are great. It just the story that bring it down. It seems that some people are starting to see that KH story isn't exactly its strong suit.
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#17grand_kaizerPosted 2/17/2013 11:05:14 PM
KH, the original, is downright glorious. It's an extremely fun romp down memory lane the gave us all glimpses of FF characters in new settings, against a backdrop painted with the nostalgia of Disney's legacy. The story was easy to follow, coherent, and honestly, pretty darn decent all things considered.

What followed was Chain of Memories, an interesting look at the blossoming series that introduced new threats, new concepts, and kept running with what the first one started. It wasn't on a primary console, and it wasn't made with the intent to tell the whole story yet, but to serve as the launching platform for a new chapter in the series.

Then Kingdom Hearts II came out, intending to solve the mysteries left behind in Chain of Memories, and while it did... sorta, it had plot holes you could drive a truck through, and seemed to run more on rule of cool than any established in-world logic. But a lot of fans forgave that, because two was even more fun than the first, with a more competent battle system and new things to play with in this new battle system.

What has followed II has been an endless series of spin-offs that have answered fractions of the numerous questions asked by KHII and raised about three times that number. Fans are finding it hard to look beyond how much of a clogged mess the story is becoming because they keep making spinoffs designed specifically to build towards KH3 in some way without doing anything to answer the questions they raise or close even half the questions we're already waiting with.

Now we've basically had them rewrite what Nobody's are completely to better serve an adjusted plot, they've invented an entire backstory for the universe based on a fairytale from the first game (and there's no way anyone's gonna believe they had the whole Keyblade War angle in mind back during the first game) they've decided instead of a 'chosen one' concept for the keyblade instead anyone can have one, really, and all of a sudden there are five or six different versions of Sora and thirteen villains who are all the exact same guy?

I still like Kingdom Hearts. I'll still play KH3 when it comes out, because I genuinely enjoy playing them, but the plot has become absolutely laughable.

I don't think people need to hate it, but you definitely can't defend Nomura's ability to write for sequels. He's at his best when he's doing standalone stories, where all his interesting new ideas are self-contained and don't undo and rewrite the entire established universe.
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#18ZXR_ReignSlayerPosted 2/18/2013 12:38:45 AM(edited)
Cuz they made the plot as convoluted as a DC comic series, filled it to the brim with useless characters ready to be asspulled when need, milked the series like it was call of duty, but having the games on DS, 3DS, vita which made it hard for their own dedicated fans(I'm not one of em btw) to play all the games. Owning 3 separate handhelds? Seriously?

Then to top it off the developer has the audacity to turn around and metaphorically shrug his shoulders and say "theres not much interest in Kingdom hearts so I don't know about KH3"

Yeah, no s***. Probably has something to do with you not releasing the real sequel that people have been wanting for 7 years but instead chose to make filler cash ins and allowed the player base to get more and more discouraged and disinterested as time passed and not a peep was heard. (And we all know how well its working out for Versus, and this game is in development!)
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#19Wise_PotatoPosted 2/18/2013 7:48:32 AM
grand_kaizer posted...
KH, the original, is downright glorious. It's an extremely fun romp down memory lane the gave us all glimpses of FF characters in new settings, against a backdrop painted with the nostalgia of Disney's legacy. The story was easy to follow, coherent, and honestly, pretty darn decent all things considered.

What followed was Chain of Memories, an interesting look at the blossoming series that introduced new threats, new concepts, and kept running with what the first one started. It wasn't on a primary console, and it wasn't made with the intent to tell the whole story yet, but to serve as the launching platform for a new chapter in the series.

Then Kingdom Hearts II came out, intending to solve the mysteries left behind in Chain of Memories, and while it did... sorta, it had plot holes you could drive a truck through, and seemed to run more on rule of cool than any established in-world logic. But a lot of fans forgave that, because two was even more fun than the first, with a more competent battle system and new things to play with in this new battle system.

What has followed II has been an endless series of spin-offs that have answered fractions of the numerous questions asked by KHII and raised about three times that number. Fans are finding it hard to look beyond how much of a clogged mess the story is becoming because they keep making spinoffs designed specifically to build towards KH3 in some way without doing anything to answer the questions they raise or close even half the questions we're already waiting with.

Now we've basically had them rewrite what Nobody's are completely to better serve an adjusted plot, they've invented an entire backstory for the universe based on a fairytale from the first game (and there's no way anyone's gonna believe they had the whole Keyblade War angle in mind back during the first game) they've decided instead of a 'chosen one' concept for the keyblade instead anyone can have one, really, and all of a sudden there are five or six different versions of Sora and thirteen villains who are all the exact same guy?

I still like Kingdom Hearts. I'll still play KH3 when it comes out, because I genuinely enjoy playing them, but the plot has become absolutely laughable.

I don't think people need to hate it, but you definitely can't defend Nomura's ability to write for sequels. He's at his best when he's doing standalone stories, where all his interesting new ideas are self-contained and don't undo and rewrite the entire established universe.


Yes, sometimes it feels like Nomura isn't a good planner, but so far most of the new plot points don't contradict the old ones, and to be fair to Nomura, some plot points were hinted awhile ago, like Nobodies having hearts.

Also, Sora wasn't the only one with a Keyblade in KH1, there were several Keyblade wielders.
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#20CokaineCowboy77Posted 2/18/2013 11:24:25 AM
Because it's for kids.
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