To old time FF fans.

#51RomangeloPosted 7/30/2013 12:03:34 PM
I'm not feeling left out, I'm ok with XII, XIII and Type-0 battle systems.

the problem for me is the character design and fashion.

our world nowadays is full of emos. they're everywhere on the streets, they're a singer/actor/celebrity on our TVs, and in video games.

I was born in the 80's and grew up with badass rockstars.

no respect for emos from me.

and Nomura keeps creating emo characters since 20XX, maybe after X-2.

everything he does now is some stupid thing like Snow Villiers XIII-3, Noctis and his male harem, a wuss like Sora.

I'LL NEVER LIKE FINAL FANTASY XV! I HATE IT SINCE THE FIRST DAY I SAW IT AS VERSUS XIII.

and I don't care about those people who keep saying "you need to play the game before you can judge."

No, I hate the setting and the characters. It's finished.
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X > V > T > XII > VI > XIII-2 > Type-0 > VIII > VII > X-2 > TLR > XIII > IV > IX > II > III > I > XV
#52KOTRsssPosted 7/30/2013 12:46:41 PM
MetalKeiya posted...
The good news for Square Enix is that sales-wise, the FF series have had some pretty good revenue, with XII and XIII selling millions of copies other JRPG series can only dream of. Good for SE, because they needed the cash reserves.

What we see is how SE got ambitious, and how not only were their expectations brought back to reality (6 million initial sales of Tomb Raider lol), but also their development process for this generation is just plain bad. The entire reason that they can and need to release sequels to FFXIII is because they already have the assets to produce the game, and they don't want it to go to waste (read: throw away a ton of money that went into development).

This really isn't isolated, though, given that games became ridiculously expensive to develop when we made the jump to 7th generation, but the way SE managed the jump (releasing XIII sequels and heavily funding Crystal Dynamics games instead of funding Versus and other projects first) is purely their own fault.

Hopefully, under both new management, they'll work on a new development process and release games sooner. With the PS4 and X1 geared to make developing games as easy as possible, they seriously have no excuse this generation to continue making games as they used to.

Finally, yes, the fact of the matter is that, much like Call of Duty is the face of the console FPS, Final Fantasy is the face of JRPG's. And even with some smaller projects finding a fair amount of success in the West (Namco Bandai and NISA are making bankroll thanks to SE sucking this gen), JRPG's will always be seen in a bad light in the West, until either Final Fantasy releases a better-accepted game than XIII or XIV, or another developer takes over their throne as the face of JRPG's in the West.

On one hand, you're right that they needed FFXIII sequels because they already developed the assets, but on the other hand I must question the logic that a BRAND NEW ENGINE must be used for every single original installment they release.

Take a look at the PSX era. They release a new FF every year, and all of them are wildly successful. Did they need to drastically rework the engine they used each time? No. It was more or less the exact same paradigm of field exploration and battle system, with minor changes to the battle system.

But then let's look at the sequels SE has released. There's FFX-2 where they COMPLETELY reworked the battle system using the same engine. They designed entirely new models for Paine, Rikku, and Yuna, with a wide array of new animations. How about FFXIII-2? Serah and Noel's gameplay models had to be created from scratch, and there are more or less ZERO reused environments in the game. They're all original environments.


This begs the question: why did SE feel the need to develop an entirely new engine for every original title? Statistics can factually demonstrate that original FF titles make BANK. Even when the game gets the lowest metacritic score that a main series FF title has ever received (FFXIII), it still sells absurdly well. We also know for a fact that FF sequels have NEVER sold as well as their original counterparts.

So then... how does it not make sense to utilize FFXIII's engine to make a new title? They develop ass tons of new assets for the FFXIII sequels anyway, and we've seen that they can put a completely new spin on a battle system with FFX-2.

How would that not be an incredibly profitable move for SE? They could have put a team on a project right after FFXIII was released and had 3 solid years to market and develop a new FF title, and then release it before the next console generation news took over.

How is this not a no brainer?
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#53TirMcDohlPosted 7/30/2013 1:20:18 PM
TriangleHard posted...
Well first let's divide the generation of FF fans for sake of this conversation.

Classic era (FF 1 - 6)
3D era (FF 7 - FF 9)
Modern era (FFX - FFXIV)

Sadly, FF7 is now old. I now have to admit that I'm not part of new age fan of FF games.

Well, I did start out with FFIV on SNES (when it was called FF2) I just didn't like FF all that much back then. Not until FFVII I could call myself a fan of the series.

Anyway, getting to my point.

Old school FF fans..., do you feel left out?

I feel I'm left out. Actually this entire generation, I feel left out. I hated FPS and shooters, and this generation is all about that. FF series, also like this generation, no longer caters to my taste. FFXII was close. It was going to be the game that fits to my taste, but people in business suits decided majority weren't into that, and had to force Vaan to us. That's sort of when I gave up on FF series.

If you were from classic era, did you feel left out when 3D era hit?

I'm from 3D era, and I started feeling left out when modern era hit.

I think it's pretty safe to say that I'm no longer the target audience for Square. I'm just wondering that if some of you guys think like me, or if you are able to adjust your taste so you can keep on enjoying FF series.


I feel left out. I am in the similar situation like you. Thats why I switched my game to mmorpg nowadays, only play console or handheld if there's turn-based / ATB with open world map (not stupid point to point world map) RPG.
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Sieg Zeon
#54jessevalePosted 7/30/2013 1:51:21 PM
Romangelo posted...
I'm not feeling left out, I'm ok with XII, XIII and Type-0 battle systems.

the problem for me is the character design and fashion.

our world nowadays is full of emos. they're everywhere on the streets, they're a singer/actor/celebrity on our TVs, and in video games.

I was born in the 80's and grew up with badass rockstars.

no respect for emos from me.

and Nomura keeps creating emo characters since 20XX, maybe after X-2.

everything he does now is some stupid thing like Snow Villiers XIII-3, Noctis and his male harem, a wuss like Sora.

I'LL NEVER LIKE FINAL FANTASY XV! I HATE IT SINCE THE FIRST DAY I SAW IT AS VERSUS XIII.

and I don't care about those people who keep saying "you need to play the game before you can judge."

No, I hate the setting and the characters. It's finished.


I agree, though not so angrily. The aesthetics are often dismissed by people who think we're being superficial, but as I said in my last post, they're a hint at something far greater. My old signature stated Nomura is my most treacherous foe - in reality, he is a heartfelt developer who has a vision. Unfortunately that vision is stepped on by SE's publisher-first policies.

Nomura goes and states he admired the scenario direction for XII, as well as the nature tone and dialogue between characters. This is a good sign, and yet I just can't see that replicated with the same sort of prepackaged character design. Like I said, we once played humans and characteristic JRPG anthropomorphs. And I don't call FF a JRPG; I am a fan of deep, quality games - not one RPG subgenre or another. FF was about good, classic RPGs...

Now we're left with FAR FAR too much emphasis on characters, no respect for the importance of setting to narrative, especially in a fantasy tale. At least in XV there is some skin detail on the characters, pockmark and freckle textures and the like - compare humans in MGS to the supposedly human beings in XIII. It's silly. I didn't imagine playing anime characters, least of all terribly over emotional ones. Fantasy is about great respect for detailed settings, brimming with atmosphere and culture. Classic fantasy novels are based on even larger books detailing the world behind the story; think the Silmarillion to Lord of the Rings. These details are what makes fantasy fantastic. There is absolutely nothing fantastic about melodramatic humans crying at each other.

I want to experience a fleshed out world filled with subtle ambient detail, surprise and excitement around every corner, an intriguing plot to discover with characters who act believably given their place in that setting. This is what fantasy needs to explore - religion or anti-authority like XIII relies FAR too much on predisposition to real life issues; a plot like that is relatable only because real world corporations & ruling bodies are commonly controversially corrupt. Just because religion is a hot button issue in real life, why does that mean my character in this game automatically fights against such a thing? What precedence is there in their world for the animosity that comes from issues like this? Show me, tell me, fantasize with me. The exploration of living breathing world & culture is far more important to fantasy than anime characters acting so cool and designers trying too hard to make an impact with terrible one liners from stereotypical badasses.

I don't care how cool your hair is when you face downward and to the right so that it covers your eye while you make a determined, cocky grin.
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Eagerly awaiting FFXIV's inevitable failure. Even a fantastic game cannot withstand initial bad press & the long-dead MMO format. Sad but true.
#55jessevalePosted 7/30/2013 2:00:15 PM
The element that is missing from the series is what I call charm. It didn't matter that Cait Sith in VII was ridiculous and silly and mostly ignored while we were still too impressed with the portrayal of said badass - now we can see that such characters brought a certain traditional charm with them. Cloud is now mostly known as the same style badass emo thanks to the compilation and Advent Children, where before, things like the silliness of the cross dressing side quest and much more of his demeanor was what brought humanity to fantasy. There is room for far more in these characters.

Red XIII, Freya, Quina, Kimahri - I'm not even a fan of most of these, but there is a charm in their inclusion. Just like there's a small charm in the often jarring behavior of your typical cutesy chick - it was all part of the package. Now we're given some terrible publisher's idea of what can sell the most games.

Like I said though... When it seems SE could realize deeper things like this, it's proven wrong by the fact so many still love the games, whether they adapted or are new and haven't hit their tolerance threshold yet - X was disliked by many classic fans just like XIII is now, for example. At the time I couldn't believe anyone could dislike X. But for them, it's the same as with this next generation that hates XIII. The same cliches, the same stylistic choices, trying too hard. SE won't realize it because they never have; the fanbase will always exist. Like I said in my last post, all the power to those who can still enjoy - while I hate XIII and probably hate their tastes, I can't hold anything against someone who simply enjoys something I don't. It is just unfortunate that a once great developer who could push out classic RPGs, classic GAMES, has become a parody of itself, where their games are considered niche JRPGs before they're considered masterpieces for the ages.

Still, though, there is always some hope. Many different visions exist within SE (though I still think those with visions should leave and realize their dreams without SE packaging their game into a neat little product), and one game or another has always been liked or disliked. It'll continue this way, but it remains a fact that SE is a publisher first now, and with that policy change, the kind of momentum that comes with such size is impossible to slow down. People hoping Wada's removal meant anything at all are unfortunately wrong - a corporation is much more than a figurehead. There is so much money, investments, etc. within the company that many many many suit wearing executives can't just up and disappear and allow their developers to do what they will. Just like EA, and any big business in any industry - the gamers, the designers are not behind the wheel. It is unfortunate but true.
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Eagerly awaiting FFXIV's inevitable failure. Even a fantastic game cannot withstand initial bad press & the long-dead MMO format. Sad but true.
#56MysteryVeilPosted 7/30/2013 2:16:11 PM
I started with Final Fantasy 1, and I wouldn't say I feel left out. I still enjoy Final Fantasy and lots of other JRPGs as much as I always did. XIII not so much, but XV looks like it's going in my kind of direction. :)
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Currently playing Tales of Rebirth.
One year anniversary! MysteryVeil and eixeeee. October 27, 2012.
#57Kagayaku08Posted 7/30/2013 4:13:07 PM
i started with mystic quest back in the early 90's. Played FF 6 when it was FF 3 and I don't feel left out.
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nobody owes you anything but a roll of the eye, a kick in the ass, and gaffaw at how much you suck
#58Kagayaku08Posted 7/30/2013 5:02:04 PM
KOTRsss posted...

Keep in mind that when western audiences say "classic JRPG," a solid 75-80% of the games being references are just Squaresoft RPGs.


the reason for this is because FF is the only jrpg to be a significant success in the west. Many JRPGS didn't even get the chance to jump into the 3-D era much less the ps2 era.


I feel fans focus too much on their pet theories without proper analysis. FF 12 was in development since 2000. Matsuno's sickness is not a sign of terrible development conditions.

Did they bit off too much with FF 13, yes; however, I can't bring myself to criticism them for taking risks.
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nobody owes you anything but a roll of the eye, a kick in the ass, and gaffaw at how much you suck
#59KOTRsssPosted 7/30/2013 7:48:55 PM
Kagayaku08 posted...
KOTRsss posted...

Keep in mind that when western audiences say "classic JRPG," a solid 75-80% of the games being references are just Squaresoft RPGs.

the reason for this is because FF is the only jrpg to be a significant success in the west. Many JRPGS didn't even get the chance to jump into the 3-D era much less the ps2 era.

FF's success isnt some automatic result of an opportunity that only FF got. Dragon Quest games have been released in the US for roughly the same amount of time and they havent even come close to the success that FF has had, and this is in spite of the fact that DRAGON QUEST UNCONDITIONALLY SELLS MORE THAN FINAL FANTASY IN JAPAN. The reason that FF has made a name for itself in the west is because it appealed to the west. Not because it had no competition. It had competition, and it beat the stuffing out of its competition.



I feel fans focus too much on their pet theories without proper analysis. FF 12 was in development since 2000. Matsuno's sickness is not a sign of terrible development conditions.

Pet theories? FFXII's development process was an utter train wreck. Stress related sickness isnt a reason to quit halfway through the development of a multi million dollar video game title. Stress related sickness is a reason to take a paid vacation, and that is not what Matsuno did.

The director himself had issues with the development process because he didnt want just anyone to be able to insert their own ideas into his creative vision. Think about this for a second. It's like hiring Joel and Ethan Coen to make a film, and then giving the rest of the film crew the jurisdiction to make suggestions like "can we give them laser guns in this scene?" or "how about they use phones that can produce knockout gas when a button is pressed?" or "I dont like this scene we should change it."

It's simply asinine. It's one thing to have a democratic approach to creativity if the director/writer works well in that scenario, but hiring the creator of highly successful games and then putting him in that situation when he doesnt want it qualifies as train wreck material. Especially when said director voluntarily removes himself due to "sickness," recovers almost immediately, and then never works with said company again or suffers from any similar episode.

After Matsuno left, he was replaced not by 1, but by 3 directors, none of whom had any successful titles under their belt, and the game ended up being run on an engine that the PS2 couldnt even take full advantage of, with a significant amount of content being cited as cut out entirely. That, my friend, is a train wreck.
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Gamefaqs has taught us that academic fields like literature don't exist because of teenagers that say "well that's just your opinion and I disagree."
#60KOTRsssPosted 7/30/2013 7:51:12 PM(edited)
Did they bit off too much with FF 13, yes; however, I can't bring myself to criticism them for taking risks.

It's not really about how much they bit off. It's about the development process as referenced by the director of the game himself. If you actually pay attention to the words that come out of this guy's mouth, he's clearly just an idiot. No, he's not simply bad at his job. He consistently, without fail, says some of the stupidest crap you will ever hear coming out of a high profile developer.

Listen:

"With a large-scale development team, we didn't use our time well," he said. "How do you communicate to everyone in the department what the drive of the game is?" The company had previously been using the story as the basis for development, but as it changed, it was tough to keep that many people abreast of the changes. "We decided we needed to create more practical milestones, not story-based ones."

I want you to stop for a second and imagine a scenario. You are a video game developer that just directed a high profile triple A title, and saying "how do you manage a large-scale development team?" This should be MIND-blowing to anyone looking at this from a marginally objective perspective.


I encourage you to read this interview about the development of FFXIII where he more or less admits that he had no clue what he was supposed to be doing.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/30640/Exclusive_Behind_The_Scenes_of_Square_Enixs_Final_Fantasy_XIII.php

You can basically hear first hand from the lead developer of FFXIII that the development process was a total and utter train wreck.



Is that enough evidence for you? It sure as hell is more than you provided.

Then again I'm pretty sure you're the poster that I've already wasted plenty of time trying to reason with. Yup here is a link to a thread where I have to explain to him why Deus Ex Machinas are bad writing, if anyone wants to see. IIRC he was claiming that it was okay for the Ragnarok to appear out of nowhere because "it's better than killing off the main characters."

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/619315-final-fantasy-xiii-2/60528210
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Gamefaqs has taught us that academic fields like literature don't exist because of teenagers that say "well that's just your opinion and I disagree."