Final Fantasy 12 is my all time favourite game in the series.

#21BluezHighwindzPosted 8/17/2013 8:59:32 AM
I'm glad to see there are so many defending FFXII threads now. I was tired of the entire fanbase being focused on FFXIII.

Let's forget FFXIII and FFXIII-2 and Lightning Returns. They were never worthy of being part of the series, they were failed experiments, move past it. Let's focus on the brilliant past and the possibilities of the future. Not the awful present.
#22KOTRsssPosted 8/17/2013 11:25:36 AM
Wiegraf2 posted...
donkeyjack posted...
Lol, damn, KOTR.

I would love FF12 fans refute your criticism without feelings.


Literally every one of those criticisms is completely subjective. I absolutely love the game, and disagree with every single thing that he says. But as much as I argue with him, I guarantee you that I'm not going to change his mind and a flame war will just ensue. It's not anything to do with the capabilities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I'm_entitled_to_my_opinion

Stop tellings yourself that subjectivity makes all opinions equally valid.
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#23KOTRsssPosted 8/17/2013 12:10:25 PM
Thamauturge posted...
No, I completely disagree. When you are facing opponents in real time with a system that is completely FF oriented, how in the world would you prefer to have to take the time to switch to every single playable character and perform the actions when you could just use gambits to do what you were going to do in the first place? Gambits were perfect, and if you didn't like them then guess what? You don't have to use them.

You completely failed to acknowledge the point that I am making. Claiming that gambits were necessary is completely asinine when FFXII is literally the only JRPG or WRPG to have a battle system that is completely automated. The results are in and the gambits have not been demonstrated to be favorable to audiences on the whole, let alone "necessary," regardless of whether or not you personally enjoyed them.


I agree that randomized treasure chests were not particularly great and should have been replaced by a normal chest system, but the international version did help with this quite a bit. And hey, the RNG method was actually pretty fun to do.

You once again demonstrate your inability to comprehend my point. Saying that the RNG method was "actually pretty fun to do" is you saying that you enjoyed FFXII, which is completely irrelevant to all of the points I made. Your love for the game prevents you from even acknowledging something as basic as randomized, guide requiring treasure chests in a JRPG as something legitimately bad.


lol. Repetitive? Just like every single other Final Fantasy game where you have random battles and all you do is press attack with maybe cure until you win? In all the random battle Final Fantasy games have about three different sets of enemies that spawn per area, and this goes on for a very long time. The games are still great, don't get me wrong, but repetitiveness is pretty important for the series. Even still, I don't see how the hunts are repetitive. Many of them had little side stories to go along with them. All of them had different sets of enemies.

There wasnt a single final fantasy, until 12, where the most efficient way of disposing of enemies was to do nothing but attack and cure until you won. There was always a more advantageous way to use your turns. Furthermore, comparing the nature of sidequests to the nature of the battle system itself is a rather desperate way to try to refute my point. There is a massive difference between repetitive actions taken in the core of gameplay, and repetitive content within the game.


Agreed that Penelo and Vaan were underdeveloped. But it is hardly a gamebreaker. FFVI's cast had many underdeveloped characters, and that game is still great. Even with Vaan and Penelo though, the rest of the cast EASILY makes up for it. Gabranth is the best supporting villain in any Final Fantasy game, and he has loads of development. Balthier is bar none, the best supporting cast member. Ashe is an interesting main character and she does a very great job of not being such a typical JRPG female character like FFX's trashy Rikku and Yuna. She isn't a damsel in distress, she doesn't have a cheesy love story, and she has a genuine moral dilemma in the form of whether or not to use the nethicite and what to use it for.

FFVI's cast was more than twice the size of FFVI's cast. Even trying to use that as a defense of Vaan and Penelo is laughable. Bringing up the rest of the cast has nothing whatsoever to do with the point I made, so I'm not even going to bother indulging your praises. You are officially grasping at straws.
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Gamefaqs has taught us that academic fields like literature don't exist because of teenagers that say "well that's just your opinion and I disagree."
#24KOTRsssPosted 8/17/2013 12:10:47 PM
Nope, the only "problem" is that the game has loads of sidequests to do alongside the main story, and you likely spent a lot of time doing something and got off track of the plot and blame it on "pacing". I can concede that the trip to Archades didn't have as many cutscenes as maybe it should have had, but it wasn't devoid of value. At the Phon Coast we saw many important parts of Balthier's past and learn of his relationship with Cid. And you know, the beautiful landscape leading up to Archades was really something to behold, and made the few cutscenes worth while. My only issue with the trip was the rather annoying fetch quest in the city.

Lol, you refuse to accept that there is a pacing issue, and then you basically point it out and acknowledge it. Then you try to use the landscape as a defense for the lack of cutscenes. Are you serious?


It's a story driven largely by the villains. And to say that the first major thing that the party did was destroy the suncryst is absolutely false. Ashe leading a Resistance against the Imperials and staging her death wasn't major? Killing Judges Bergan and Ghis wasn't major? Shows how much attention you really paid.

No, killing Bergan and Ghis wasnt major, because they werent doing anything other than Vayne's bidding. It doesnt change the course of the plot in any significant way. Attempting an assassination on Galbadia's newly appointed ambassador? THATS major. Blowing up a reactor of the corporate monster that runs the city? THAT is major. Killing the main villain's lackeys is not major.


You could absolutely destroy every single FF villain by simplifying them as you did Vayne. Okay, Vayne did "a lot of bad stuff" thanks for letting me know that. But what did he do and why did he do it? He killed his father to assume leadership of Archades, he had Judge Drace executed, and he stands in the way of the heroes at every turn. But as you said, he is taking humankind back into the hands of man. You forget the part where this is a completely commendable goal and would certainly be a just cause for all of the things that he has done. What have the Occuria done? They've destroyed cities and manipulated humans for centuries before Vayne was born. They manipulate humankind at every chance. Just because you weren't compelled doesn't mean something isn't there.

No, I couldnt destroy every single FF villain by saying about them what I said about Vayne because most FF villains dont have to justify all of the screen time that Vayne got. If Vayne's actions were portrayed as a last resort, then it might be possible to argue that he was a conflicted, complex character that deserved the attention, but the fact of the matter is that he wasnt. This is just as easily demonstrated by the fact that in spite of his potentially "noble" aspiration, that he STILL ends up trying to turn himself into an all powerful godlike being and then wreaking havoc on his surroundings for no reason. His supposed goal was completed when the Suncryst was destroyed, and if that were actually important to his character development, he wouldnt have proceeded to be a total ass in the aftermath.
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Gamefaqs has taught us that academic fields like literature don't exist because of teenagers that say "well that's just your opinion and I disagree."
#25ThamauturgePosted 8/17/2013 12:31:33 PM(edited)
KOTRsss posted...
You completely failed to acknowledge the point that I am making. Claiming that gambits were necessary is completely asinine when FFXII is literally the only JRPG or WRPG to have a battle system that is completely automated. The results are in and the gambits have not been demonstrated to be favorable to audiences on the whole, let alone "necessary," regardless of whether or not you personally enjoyed them.


What are you even talking about? The gambits are favorable to the audience, and do you know why? Literally their only function is to save the player time and avoid AI stupidity (IF they so choose). You could get through the game and completely ignore gambits.


KOTRsss posted...
You once again demonstrate your inability to comprehend my point. Saying that the RNG method was "actually pretty fun to do" is you saying that you enjoyed FFXII, which is completely irrelevant to all of the points I made. Your love for the game prevents you from even acknowledging something as basic as randomized, guide requiring treasure chests in a JRPG as something legitimately bad.


ROFL. Even after I agreed with you, you still want to argue.


KOTRsss posted...
There wasnt a single final fantasy, until 12, where the most efficient way of disposing of enemies was to do nothing but attack and cure until you won. There was always a more advantageous way to use your turns. Furthermore, comparing the nature of sidequests to the nature of the battle system itself is a rather desperate way to try to refute my point. There is a massive difference between repetitive actions taken in the core of gameplay, and repetitive content within the game.


Okay, I suppose I didn't beat all of those other FF games then. I'd understand your complaint here if, you know, the sidequests were actually repetitive. Sounds like you are just desperate to believe that they are repetitive when they actually aren't. Each time you face a completely different monster, in a completely different location, and there is a completely different reason given by the person who placed the mark on it.

KOTRsss posted...
FFVI's cast was more than twice the size of FFVI's cast. Even trying to use that as a defense of Vaan and Penelo is laughable. Bringing up the rest of the cast has nothing whatsoever to do with the point I made, so I'm not even going to bother indulging your praises. You are officially grasping at straws.


Again: lol at you arguing even after I agreed with you. I agree that Vaan and Penelo were underdeveloped, but it just is not something to get up and arms about as you are doing. Every FF has its share of underdeveloped characers.
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Official Wiegraf Folles of the FFXV board
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#26ThamauturgePosted 8/17/2013 12:30:21 PM
KOTRsss posted...
Lol, you refuse to accept that there is a pacing issue, and then you basically point it out and acknowledge it. Then you try to use the landscape as a defense for the lack of cutscenes. Are you serious?


I conceded that there was a pacing issue for one small part of the game, but you think that the entirety was paced poorly when this simply is not so. The story moves very fast up until right after you beat Bergan.


KOTRsss posted...
No, killing Bergan and Ghis wasnt major, because they werent doing anything other than Vayne's bidding. It doesnt change the course of the plot in any significant way. Attempting an assassination on Galbadia's newly appointed ambassador? THATS major. Blowing up a reactor of the corporate monster that runs the city? THAT is major. Killing the main villain's lackeys is not major.


That's because most of the game is focused on them trying to protect each other and learning about the nethicite in the process, because it gradually gets more and more dangerous. It all comes to a head at the Pharos. Not seeing the problem here. And lol at ignoring the fact that Ashe was literally the leader of the resistance group that crashed Vayne's party with the intent of killing him.


KOTRsss posted...
No, I couldnt destroy every single FF villain by saying about them what I said about Vayne because most FF villains dont have to justify all of the screen time that Vayne got. If Vayne's actions were portrayed as a last resort, then it might be possible to argue that he was a conflicted, complex character that deserved the attention, but the fact of the matter is that he wasnt. This is just as easily demonstrated by the fact that in spite of his potentially "noble" aspiration, that he STILL ends up trying to turn himself into an all powerful godlike being and then wreaking havoc on his surroundings for no reason. His supposed goal was completed when the Suncryst was destroyed, and if that were actually important to his character development, he wouldnt have proceeded to be a total ass in the aftermath.


ITP: Only complex characters are good. Please explain what makes Kefka such a fantastic villian then, despite him being a textbook "for the evulz" villain.
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Official Wiegraf Folles of the FFXV board
Playing: Silent Hill Downpour, SoulCalibur V, Devil May Cry Collection------- PSN: Thamauturge
#27KOTRsssPosted 8/17/2013 12:35:53 PM
I'm just going to let things end there. I'm very comfortable with the arguments I made, and you've entirely stopped acknowledging them.
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Gamefaqs has taught us that academic fields like literature don't exist because of teenagers that say "well that's just your opinion and I disagree."
#28cory droidPosted 8/24/2013 7:54:31 PM
I was disappointed with xii on my first playthrough. Mainly because it's limited scope; whereas other ff games involved entire planets and the threats against them, xii revolved around part of a continent, a small landmass and the political conflict between several nations. It just wasnt as epic.

After later playthroughs I started to enjoy the story more for a couple of reasons. For one, I started hunting monsters more and noticed that the bestiary contained huge portions of information. (after you kill a certain # of them ) It made the game more immersing knowing about the technology, history, lore, culture and geography of the world. It doesnt really have less story than the other games, its just different in scope.

The other enjoyable part upon further playthroughs was the superb localization. The archaic and eloquent phraseology helped to convey a world of knights kings and princesses. In my opinion it also conveyed more personality to the characters; these are real human conflicts and real tragedies.

All that said ffxii doesnt rank very high among my fav ffs or fav rpgs in general. I just no longer dislike it like I did.
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#29ExtremeLightPosted 8/24/2013 7:56:31 PM
I don't think the game is actually hated. More like people got bored with it and start overreacting. FF13 is more of an object of hate.
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Lightning Returns is looking epic.
#30RasukouPosted 8/24/2013 11:20:31 PM
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