So, why does everyone think that Micaiah is a Mary Sue again? *spoilers*

#91PantheraPosted 5/28/2010 7:44:57 PM
Here's a question: if Micaiah were the main character of a fanfic or a character in an RP, or some other fan-related thing, would people consider her a Mary Sue?

...

So, say I went to the Final Fantasy VII boards and suggested that a character like this be put into that game. Do you think anyone would take me seriously?


No, they wouldn't, since you conveniently leave out every single case of her doing dumb things, being called out by everyone around her, basically you just left out every single time she's cast in a negative light AND ignore that she basically has zero plot relevance in part 4 besides being possessed by a different character. It's not like the royalty thing is all that big a deal, given that Fire Emblem is basically always about royals and nobles doing stuff, and she actually works hard to help people enough to become a national hero before she becomes queen - she actually DOES something to sort of earn that position, kind of like how if you're going to throw the Sue complaint at Ike, him being offered nobility by Elincia isn't a point in your favour considering he actually did a hell of a lot to earn it. Granted, Ike got a lesser position offered than Micaiah (and had a lesser "I'm secretly descended from someone special!" thing), but given the circumstances, it's pretty understandable.
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#92thatfeguyPosted 5/28/2010 7:59:27 PM
No, they wouldn't, since you conveniently leave out every single case of her doing dumb things,

Doing dumb things doesn't make you stop being a Sue.

being called out by everyone around her,

Read it again. I did address that. Everyone who calls her out is either in an enemy army, obviously evil, or jealous. The only exception is Sothe. That's one entire person who ever calls her out on anything.

basically you just left out every single time she's cast in a negative light

Like when she sets Sanaki on fire? Oh wait, nobody cared except her enemies, and there are no other points where she is shown in a negative light.

AND ignore that she basically has zero plot relevance in part 4 besides being possessed by a different character.

Who is a goddess who was only able to save the world through her because of her sudden biological connections to Lehran. That's an incredibly Sueish trait.

It's not like the royalty thing is all that big a deal, given that Fire Emblem is basically always about royals and nobles doing stuff,

But she was a royal without knowing about it who chose to deny her royal heritage in favor of a different one, which is a very Sue thing to do.

and she actually works hard to help people enough to become a national hero before she becomes queen - she actually DOES something to sort of earn that position, kind of like how if you're going to throw the Sue complaint at Ike, him being offered nobility by Elincia isn't a point in your favour considering he actually did a hell of a lot to earn it. Granted, Ike got a lesser position offered than Micaiah (and had a lesser "I'm secretly descended from someone special!" thing), but given the circumstances, it's pretty understandable.

As I've said already, Ike is also a Sue (or Stu). She shows many of the same qualities, and incidentally is also a Sue. Go figure.

And I'd also like to point out that you are ignoring several things, such as the fact that everyone in her country worships her (sure, it was toned down for the US, but you know it's true), that her critical logic failures regarding the Blood Pact are overlooked by the characters and ultimately the game itself, and that the Blood Pact itself exists only as a means to give Micaiah a tough moral choice to endear us all the more to her and remind us that she's still human. She's a character who the game makers wanted to make everyone think was perfect (but not REALLY perfect, just flawed enough to make her good traits shine even brighter!). You yourself have been bending over backwards to prove that Micaiah's actions throughout the game are completely justified and that we should assume things are true just because she said so, which only further emphasizes that she is a Mary Sue.
#93SlaveBladePosted 5/28/2010 8:12:34 PM
She couldn't attempt to negotiate because EVERYONE WOULD DIE. You seem to be completely ignoring the blood pact, and the fact that she flat out SAYS that she can't risk trying to communicate with Ike and Sanaki in case it makes Lekain activate the curse.

What a BS reason. It's war, negotiations are a part of war. Like I implied, she could have used that time to talk to plan things out, see where they are coming from. But no. Talking is for the weak, peaceful people who have brains. Micaiah just has a nice ass and legs, so I guess I was the dumb one for expecting competence from her.

Selfish was the wrong word, I admit. I'll go with immature and not even remotely ready to lead an army with her god awful intellect. And no, she doesn't get called out, and there are 0, zip, NADA consequences to what she did. She may as well have thrown a baseball through their car window and flip them the bird and they woulda just said, "BAD Micaiah" and slap her on the wrist. That's pretty much what happened.

Because no one else had any ideas either. No one could think of anything better than "try to stall and hope we can figure out a way to remove the blood pact". And frankly, her plan would be good for that - if they incinerate Sanaki, that may well end the whole war right away, and would certainly delay the army a lot, AND make the Senators happy, all things that would buy time to solve the main problem and look like they were following Lekain's orders to him while involving less death than an all out battle.

You know what you really are missing? She could have burned them AFTER they talked, you know. Two delays, sweet! It's like cushioning! Senators woulda been double happy, practically splooging in their pants, Micaiah playing mindgames with those ****ers!
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That is the single dumbest thing I have heard all day, and I work Tech Support...
My bro-in-law on Killer Instinct 3 dwarfing MvC3
#94BattaTheBeastPosted 5/28/2010 8:33:30 PM
You know, the one thing that's really solidifies Micaiah's status as a Mary Sue for me, barring the entirety of Part 4, is actually the action taken by somebody else entirely: Rafiel.

To elaborate:
-The entire Laguz Alliance/Begnion conflict was brought about due to Rafiel going on about how Begnion's senators were responsible for the Serenes massacre.
-Ignoring that the only have his word to go on and that this event had already been profusely apologized for by the highest ranking official in Begnion and that she and her country were forgiven by two of the three remaining herons at the time, the Laguz immediately band together and get super nosy.
-They are shocked when their messengers get killed, and declare war on an empire they can't possibly win against (as we later find out).
-Fast-Forward to the scene where Rafiel and Micaiah meet again. Micaiah has stubbornly refused to even acknowledge that the opposing army wants to settle things peacefully, and after having things explained to him, what does he decide to do?

Does he try to act as a liaison between the two groups? Does he inform Micaiah that Lehran's Medallion is present and that the constant fighting between the two groups could potentially awaken the dark god? Does he do anything to rectify the situation that came about almost entirely because of him?

No. Instead he cuts all ties with Sanaki's army and starts fighting against them. In fact the only heroes who ever seem to get called out on their stupid behavior in this game are Skrimir and Naesala, and both have their own justifications for it (Skrimir is a hotheaded, hotblooded idiot, and Naesala was in a similar situation to Micaiah that he actually tried to work his way out of instead of sticking to aiding the villains out of sheer hope that some miracle would save his ass).
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The speech you gave to the legless boy about hard work and making something of himself was fantastic.~ Bhelen Aeducan
Wario... Wario never changes. ~ belial_77
#95BattaTheBeastPosted 5/28/2010 8:35:14 PM
Instead he cuts all ties with Sanaki's army and starts fighting against them. And no, he doesn't get called out on this, either. In fact...

Somehow between typing up that post and actually posting it, the bolded managed to vanish entirely. Gods, what I'd do for an edit button...
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The speech you gave to the legless boy about hard work and making something of himself was fantastic.~ Bhelen Aeducan
Wario... Wario never changes. ~ belial_77
#96PantheraPosted 5/28/2010 8:46:45 PM
And I'd also like to point out that you are ignoring several things, such as the fact that everyone in her country worships her (sure, it was toned down for the US, but you know it's true), that her critical logic failures regarding the Blood Pact are overlooked by the characters and ultimately the game itself, and that the Blood Pact itself exists only as a means to give Micaiah a tough moral choice to endear us all the more to her and remind us that she's still human.

Okay, that's BS. I'm not going to argue with you when you're going to say that any non-Sue traits from her are just things invented solely to make her seem even more awesome, you've already made up your mind too firmly for there to be a point to this.

She's a character who the game makers wanted to make everyone think was perfect (but not REALLY perfect, just flawed enough to make her good traits shine even brighter!). You yourself have been bending over backwards to prove that Micaiah's actions throughout the game are completely justified and that we should assume things are true just because she said so, which only further emphasizes that she is a Mary Sue.

And again, if anyone not agreeing with you is in your mind just proof that you're right, this is pointless (also I haven't said everything she does is completely justified so much as I believe her actions made sense and her errors and morally questionable actions are overstated like crazy by people)

What a BS reason. It's war, negotiations are a part of war. Like I implied, she could have used that time to talk to plan things out, see where they are coming from. But no. Talking is for the weak, peaceful people who have brains. Micaiah just has a nice ass and legs, so I guess I was the dumb one for expecting competence from her.

Misogyny much? But anyway, no, negotiations are NOT part of this war, because she can't negotiate when if she doesn't obey the orders from Lekain to wipe out the Laguz Alliance and Sanaki's army, everyone in her country will die. You keep ignoring that we're specifically told that the guy with his hand on the "kill you guys" button is demanding the slaughter of the entire opposing army.

You know what you really are missing? She could have burned them AFTER they talked, you know. Two delays, sweet! It's like cushioning! Senators woulda been double happy, practically splooging in their pants, Micaiah playing mindgames with those ****ers!

Except as I keep mentioning, she believes that if she tries to talk to Sanaki, even if she doesn't mention the truth at all, Lekain will think she's trying to get around the pact and will activate it. She says this herself I believe, and considering this is Senator "Dance on the grave of the world because my entire personality is that I'm a jerk to everyone" Lekain we're talking about, she's got reason to be concerned.
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#97SlaveBladePosted 5/28/2010 8:56:33 PM
Except as I keep mentioning, she believes that if she tries to talk to Sanaki, even if she doesn't mention the truth at all, Lekain will think she's trying to get around the pact and will activate it. She says this herself I believe, and considering this is Senator "Dance on the grave of the world because my entire personality is that I'm a jerk to everyone" Lekain we're talking about, she's got reason to be concerned.

So the way I'm seeing it, Micaiah A: Should not have been the commander, a case of being favored by the story and the characters in the game, and B: It's HER OWN DAMN LACK OF INTELLECT preventing anything 'good' happening. Another reason to get competence in their and not some pretty T and A.
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That is the single dumbest thing I have heard all day, and I work Tech Support...
My bro-in-law on Killer Instinct 3 dwarfing MvC3
#98thatfeguyPosted 5/28/2010 8:57:11 PM
Okay, that's BS. I'm not going to argue with you when you're going to say that any non-Sue traits from her are just things invented solely to make her seem even more awesome, you've already made up your mind too firmly for there to be a point to this.

And again, if anyone not agreeing with you is in your mind just proof that you're right, this is pointless (also I haven't said everything she does is completely justified so much as I believe her actions made sense and her errors and morally questionable actions are overstated like crazy by people)

Okay.

Anyway, in reference to Batta's posts...I've always been sort of confused about people's attitude about this. I definitely understand why Rafiel comes off really, really badly there, but why doesn't anybody ever complain about Nailah's role? She was right there with him arbitrarily switching sides, and she even actively enjoys fighting her former allies. I know that overall her betrayal is lesser since she didn't really have any personal stake in the war proper beyond protecting Rafiel, but it still strikes me as odd that nobody (on the boards or ingame) calls her out on this.
#99BattaTheBeastPosted 5/28/2010 9:04:26 PM
I'd actually argue that Nailah is even worse than Rafiel in that situation.

Sure, she basically says she's only defecting to keep Rafiel safe, but unlike Rafiel she's at least shown herself to be pretty sharp. All in all, I actually think it's pretty safe to declare the entirety of Part 3 to be nothing more than one massive idiot plot.
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The speech you gave to the legless boy about hard work and making something of himself was fantastic.~ Bhelen Aeducan
Wario... Wario never changes. ~ belial_77
#100PantheraPosted 5/28/2010 9:05:46 PM
So the way I'm seeing it, Micaiah A: Should not have been the commander, a case of being favored by the story and the characters in the game, and B: It's HER OWN DAMN LACK OF INTELLECT preventing anything 'good' happening. Another reason to get competence in their and not some pretty T and A.

This doesn't even make sense.
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