Would anyone mind detailing the Specialty Runs?

#1SBK91Posted 3/9/2012 7:31:43 PM
Specifically, what are the rules of each, what do the +'s variations mean, and what sections are considered exceptions in the various runs?
#2MrStarkillerPosted 3/10/2012 3:14:54 PM

>would anyone

>implying there are other specialty runners

Catkiller and Sarumusha were pretty much the 'other' and they don't exactly post these days.

Specifically, what are the rules of each, what do the +'s variations mean, and what sections are considered exceptions in the various runs?

>rules

I'll pull out the .doc on it.

>plus variations

That's part of the deal.

>exceptions

Giving me a work out today, I see.

Because of ProBoards, I lost my coverage of NFR+ NUR+, P+ NUR+ and FO+ NUR+.  Knowing the exceptions for those is...somewhat important for me listing them at all.  I do still have light coverage from the NFR+, FO+, P+ and NUR+.  Often enough the rules are pretty relaxed, but I will get strict with myself.

This is a thread with the simpler runs (starting on the page with the coverage): http://www.gow3forums.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=5113&start=50

I could try to recall composite run coverage if need be.  It has been long enough now that I have doubts about the clarity of my memory.  I'd done the DLC missions (3) in all run conditions.  Well, aside from NFR+ NUR+ and P+ NUR+ for a specific fight in the Jedi Temple (that opening bout is no joke).

NOTE: The old coverages will have early tactics from the time the game came out.  Newer coverage would have been from just a month or so ago when I revisted the game.

---

Let's try to make the rules concrete and clear now:

No Force Run

-No Force Spending *drain of Force Points (FP)*

This is to say you can use force embued strikes or any other ability so long as it does not use any FP.  An old condition for the run (that has been dropped) was 'No Power-ups'.  This referring, I think, to Holocrons and Crystals.  You're free to disregard this as I now do.  I forget what the old run ended up humoring though.

No Force Run+

-No Force Spending

-No Force Augmentation

The latter refers to embued strikes (use of the lightning and push button in strings).  I did not outlaw Leaping Slam (air S) or even Aerial Strike (air locked L1).  It is a bit on the tasteless side to use AS, but it doesn't use force nor does it involve lighting/push.  To clarify, Saber Toss isn't allowed even in the non-plus version because it does cost FP.  If you feel this doesn't change enough, you may avoid Sith (and even Jedi) Holocrons along with usage of Power Crystals for perks.  If you do use Power Crystals, those that cause effects mimic what isn't allowed, but don't cost force so I cannot outlaw them.  Your call.

Force Only

-No Saber Strikes

-Augments are fine

-Block is fine

This is what I had noted anyway.  I don't know why I'd allow Block other than out of kindness.  Augments like the push strings that don't actually hit the Saber are clearly defensible, but it is questionable *still allowed* to use lightning saber strikes.  Again, you have to avoid pure Saber hits.  Because Saber Toss, Aerial Strike, etc. use the Saber, you have to avoid them.  Getting DQ'd for Saber use would be easy if you get in the habit of using Augments.  I guess I made allowances for an entry level version of the run so the pure one could be the 'plus' case.

Because you can block, you can hold that to return blaster fire so as to damage foes (another mans aside from FP using moves).  Augments being another such option for when you want to recover.

Force Only +

-No Saber Strikes

This one removes the allowances (what is "fine").  You may not block (auto-block isn't yours to control) or use even the embued saber moves.  It is all about the Force in this run.

Pacifist

-Do not "Kill" anything.

I don't really word this well and the game is inconsistent about assigning blame.  Obviously returning enemy attacks upon them to end their lives should be allowed (returned blaster bolts, returned lightning, grenades, etc.).  This even if the game gives you kill credit.  Avoiding kill credit is hard (even when foes just walk off the cliff without it being your doing).  So now you know you can use block for an 'offense' of sorts.

There is the matter of hurting people.  You can do this in the non-plus version DIRECTLY (anything goes).  Foes kill each other?  Obviously not your fault.  Kill themselves?  Not on you.  There is the question of responsibility that makes it tricky to allow grip for dropping foes off cliffs or putting them against a laser gate (that sort of thing).

Obviously certain things have to be killed or you cannot progress.  These are clear exceptions (bosses and some others).  Much of the run will be about simply running from combat where you can, minimizing it where it gets rough, etc.  With Sith Holocrons and Jedi Holocrons, you can more easily whether the storm.

So what else isn't your fault with regards to killing a target?  What can you do?  Repositioning targets or otherwise trapping them without killing them is clearly okay (Grip factors).  What of those that are not living?  May you kill them?  I've pondered this before.  The drones from the DLC, 8-WEP/8-WEM (turrets), Death Star turrets, Purge Troopers, droids (non-enemies), AT-*Ts.  Most of these you could give yourself a pass on being that they are NOT living creatures.  The AT-*Ts are tricky because they have a living operator inside them.  It is simpler to think of them as a machine, but does it count against you in the run?  Frankly, you don't have to fight them at all anyway, so you should just leave them be.  The other machines noted ought to be fair game.

Another consideration is holding a target up with Grip so that their allies/enemies may kill them.  This is allowed.  Grinding them against objects/people, tossing them off cliffs/into laser gates/at walls, etc. though would be in violation should they die as it is clearly murderous intent.  Even the trick of restraining a target is questionable to be honest.  That's the trouble with the run's logic.  What about moving foes into places they are very likely to proceed to kill themselves from?  Wouldn't that be the same as the restraining example (Ex: Moving a foe to a remote platform over a cliff, they stand up and walk off it)?  How about having a foe grab another (using Euphoria) and the gripped drops the grabbed into death?  Is it still our fault?  It is clearly our intent/design, but we didn't do the murdering directly.

Defining the run is troublesome as you can plainly see from just the kill conditions.  So you know you can kill machines.  AT-*Ts are questionable.  Returning attacks is allowed.  Bosses force your hand.  In my run notes, you willl see me struggle and you may choose to do the same.  That is YOUR call *the conditions were mess at times*.

For this occassion, I'd like to redefine the run.

-Do not "Kill" via damage

This changes things.  Obviously pure machines may be killed directly.  Machines operated by the living are trouble when you cannot avoid them as you may not kill these via damage (this is non-plus, so you can weaken them to near death directly).  You might still have to violate the rule for one of the two Uggernaughts.  Frankly, they should be exceptions.  I'll let you test it for yourself.  Tossing a foe into a laser gate or "the long way down" would not be in violation now.  You could even hit them into these so long as the hit itself doesn't kill them (because you can hurt foes in the non-plus version).

I think this change would neatly avoid most of the conditions I struggled with.  Sure it works around what it is to be pacifist, but the damn run conditions can be a real pain to define and live up to (when doable).  Spend most of your time avoiding fights, toss various into instant kills (not based in damage we cause).  Again, you can do anything to 'harm' a foe, so long as you don't kill them with that action that would prove a DQ.

Feel free to ask questions.  With the P+, I'm sure you'll have a few to trouble me with.

Pacifist+

Working off the previous case...

-Do not "Kill" via damage

-Do not directly HARM

As before, instant kills are not your fault, machines may be ruthlessly attacked (pilots ones are exceptions that can become exceptions to themselves), you can grip people and let others harm them, etc.  You just cannot even so much as move a gripped target and have him collide for tiny damage to his person or that of another.  Careful about this.  Returning shots/lightning should be fine (giving you some way to protect yourself).  To note it, the Sith Holocron for HP Drain Aura is another tricky case.  I think I have to outlaw the usage of it should it harm (in this run) or kill (in either) those you are not licensed to neutralize as such.

Sorry this is so complicated.

NOTE: If I allowed intentional grip based ring-out in the P+ NUR+, I'm sure I'd beat the Jedi Temple's first fight.  As for NFR+ NUR+...nothing will have changed.  At least in the NFR+, I had AS as an alternative to just LS.

No Upgrade Run

-Do not use Force spheres (Powers or Combos)

Simple enough.  Leveling up will refill HP/FP, but just don't use the spheres you gain from that or Jedi Holocrons to get new/better abilities.

No Upgrade Run+

-Do not use Force Spheres (Powers, Combos or Talents)

-Do not use Power Crystals

GoW logic with regards to talents being allowed before and disallowed now.  The loss of Power Crystals takes out another means to feel powerful.

#3MrStarkillerPosted 3/10/2012 3:15:36 PM

Exceptions.  Boy, oh boy.

NFR/NFR+

NOTE: I heavily suggest learning to block cancel saber strings and use movement cancels on buffers.  Doesn't hurt to get good with grabs (realize you won't have true i-frames outside QTEs), master evasion i-frames (all runs really), etc.

-Opening certain doors, powering things up, etc.  Puzzle and navigation stuff.  Just don't violate the rules via killing something while you're at it (using the Force).  I won't need specific cases as such.  These are all exceptions as you need to spend the force to open them or at least apply embued strikes.

Regarding the degree you are allowed to use the force to open a door...that is tricky.  I might just say that you can do what you like with it so long as you don't hit a foe as there are times where one might apply the trick of opening a door partially to make a chokepoint.  Simply saying you can only open a door until you can get through and no further would be somewhat troublesome I think.

-Jumptroopers will be a pain in the ass in general, but you've got Leaping Slam and Aeriel Strike.  The non-plus allows Augments (lighting saber strikes would help with that foe).  They get special mention (not an exception) for their antics.

-Paratus may seem like you need the Force to handle him, but I've bested him in two different ways without it.  In the NFR, you would be allowed imbued strikes, though I question the usefulness in his case (great for the Junk Titans).  So he's not an exception, but worth pointing out that he is not as such.

-Imperial Raxus Prime's Star Destroyer bit doesn't really give you the option to keep to conditions.

-Darth Vader S2 required a stun on him to either deal damage or open him to a direct attack with saber hits.  Frankly, this violates our rules, so you're free to do as you like unless S3 begins.

-Returning the lightning is questionable, but allowed with the Emperor fight.

-The opening fight to the Jedi Temple is doable (and forced), but very difficult.  I don't think I was able to do it in the NFR+ NUR+, but barely cleared it in the NFR+.

-Fett's shield can only be taken down with Lightning or Saber Toss as I recall.  Either would be allowed just in that context as he doesn't seem to ever take it down once he puts it up and you need to get rid of it or the fight can't continue.  If you would feel bad about him getting opened up by chance, use Saber Toss to disspell the shield instead.  I think Leaping Slam and some other means work around the Incinerator Trooper shield while basic melee can break that of the Commanders.  I forget.  You'll have to test for yourself.

NOTE: I don't think I missed any special cases.  Ask if you have questions regarding either of these.  As for NFR/NFR+ NUR/NUR+, that's just taking away the training wheels.  I suggest you don't just jump into this until you've done NFR+ and NUR+ seperately.  Your call.  Just remember you do not have to fight everyone and if leaving means opening a door with the force and fleeing, that's allowed.  Just don't use major skips such as findlestick shows off.

NOTE2: When blocking you get into a force power struggle mini-game sometimes as I recall (not just for trying to grip when they do).  I'm not sure what to tell you here should I be remembering right.  Hope it doesn't happen?  I guess you can overlook it...Perhaps we can discuss this later.  The saber power struggle is obviously allowed though.

FO/FO+

NOTE: MAX Grip or Euphoria abuse...lock-on through walls, corpse vortex, etc.  Plenty of tricks.  Often it is easiest to stick to grip and keep to range.

-I believe the Commander shields will tend to block force powers (ways around that), but a single saber strike will burst it without harming him.  That's a legit way to go.

-Again, FO allows block and augments.  FO+ doesn't.  Emperior lightning returns are another matter (up to you *Darth Stalker and Dark Jedi Skywalker pull the same stunt*).  Consider it a bonus challenge if you like.

-I can recall handling the first fight of the Jedi Temple,  but I'm not sure how I would have done the FO+ NUR+.  Probably lots of grip exploitation.  That sounds about right.

-You need lvl2+ Push to proceed past an early point of Tattoine.  This is only a problem in the NUR/NUR+ version.

NOTE: I'm going to go ahead and say QTEs are not saber or Force (allowed for both), but you're free to differ.  Grabs, I feel, are the realm of the saber though.  Not a clear violation, but I don't use them here.  I never outlawed HP Drain for these runs, so you might try use it for NFR+ and FO+ where applicable.  It is 'Other'.

NOTE2: Again, composite coverage (FO/FO+ NUR/NUR+) is lost now.  I'm pretty sure I was able to do everything despite having lower level options only.

NOTE3: Lighting, Push and Grip power struggles allowed.  There is no reason you should be in a saber struggle though.  If I'm forgetting something, I apologize, but it's hard to recall all exceptions from memory.

P/P+

-Avoiding people is your real concern here.  Learn to skip as much as you are allowed to rather than trying to toss people into laser gates or ring them out if you can avoid it.

-(K) Ignore Wookies.  Defeat Kento.

-(TFF) Turrets don't count.  You can destroy them with attacks or just return shots.  The operator sometimes lives, sometimes dies.  Doesn't always make sense.  I won't hold you accountable in a case such as reflects of shots, but if you attack wildly and hit the person using it, that is a DQ.  AT-*T variants.  Just avoid them, why don't you?  Not much to ask.  Defeat Kota.

-(RP) Scrap Drones, Scrap Guardians and Junk Titans are not living things.  They are fair game if you want to fight them.  You will have to be more careful with the Rhodians and Jawas though.  Just ignore them and proceed.  There are ways to go about this.  Defeat Paratus.

-(Fel) You can ignore everything.  Defeat Shaak Ti.  The trouble here is that she won't be alone and ignoring her allies is extra work that seems like it is unfair to ask for as with some other future cases.  I'll go ahead and make it so that you need only clear the fight, but if you want the extra challenge, you need to avoid directly killing them (to be harder still, don't even use instant kills).  You might find it not to your liking to go through that nonsense.

-(Emp) Rushing through mostly works.  The last bit is trouble without being allowed to use the laser gate.  You will have that advantage.  I was able to make do without it (barely).  With it, I'm sure I'd be able to easily clear said section.

-(SC) Skipping works great until the last section.  Our 'ally' is hard to kill (short of ring-out), but loses the little fight he has in him by this point and tends to NOT help.  There are ways to make him, but it gets increasingly frustrating to deal with.  You can make the Uggernaughts harm each other and their allies, but that's a huge pain in the ass too.  Even with your being allowed to just toss fools into laser gates, pits or place them in carbonite, you might still have to violate conditions on the Uggernaughts (one of them anyway).  So don't feel bad if it comes to that.  As for the 'boss' of the level, you have no limitations against him, but his allies are another bonus case I'll say.

-(IK) Rushing through is wise.  Wookies are good allies.  Turrets and AT-*Ts are troublesome territory, so avoid having to destroy them.  Kill drones and Purge Troopers if it suits you.  Certainly suits me.  If you have 'long way down' and 'laser gates', you can probably easily handle the whole level.  Especially if you use Euphoria or MAX'd Grip exploits to take out Purge Troopers.  I'll let you figure all that out.  As for Sturn's AT-*T, he is a boss so you're free to do as you like, but I'd give bonus points for creative means to avoid killing him with damage or damaging him at all.  I'll tell you now that Wookies and ring-outs are a Hell of a thing.

-(IFel) Again, feel free to rush on through.  With the options to ring-out (and such), I suppose you could also just drop people in pits now and then to make things easier.  Freeing the Sarlacc can be pretty tough.  The Bull Rancor and Maris Brood are fair game.

-(IRP) Rush on through.  You can't avoid the first part of the major mid-level guantlet, but once the gate opens, the rules apply again.  Proxy is fair game along with the Star Destroyer's Tie Fighter back-up (forced).

-(DS) "Fly, you fools!" I'm unsure if I should outlaw fighting the large group of guards prior to the boss fights here even though there is a way to neutralize them without doing them harm so long as Force is allowed.  It seems like you P would be pushing it and P+ takes it too far.  Consider it a bonus if you figure out how to avoid fighting them.  Though I think it makes you deal with a Scout Trooper and some Jump Troopers.  You should be able to reposition them in ways that get them killed though.  That would be suggestible.  I don't think you can drop them down as that isn't instant death even for the Scout (rather, it would be collision *damage* based).  Vader is fair game.  Emperor too.  The Emperor's aids...consider them a bonus.  Feel free to send them into his shield for damage from him rather than you.

-(JT) Can't really do this as such if I recall right. The opening fight that is.  Can't skip it by normal means, but I think being able to use ring-outs might give you a way to do it.  The rest is quite doable in these conditions as I recall.  Darth Stalker is fair game.

-(Tt) Avoid fights.  You have to murder everyone in the Pig Guard guantlet and there isn't a way to make them hurt each other and such.  You don't have to face the Rancor.  Lots more fight avoidance.  Clever tricks can make use of instant kills.  Ignoring the pig guards during Fett is a bit annoying, but doable.  Obi-Wan's drones don't count as living things.  He's fair game.

-(Ho) Ignore unnecessary bouts.  You can destroy turrets if you like.  Wampas falling to their death isn't your fault (again, the allowance of purposeful abuse of 'Long Way Down' is invokable).  Mid-Boss Luke is fair game along with his later boss encounters (try not to hit your allies or enemies during it).  I did not regard Vehicles as living (no living being falls out nor do we get orbs from their destruction *though it clearly has to have a driver*), so you can toss them for a certain puzzle, but there are alternatives if it makes you feel dirty.

NOTE: I think that about covers it.

NUR/NUR+

-Said case on Tattoine (lvl2+ Push needed).

-No real exceptions otherwise (that spring to mind).  As for when comibined with others, that is another story.

~Again, if you have questions (you probably will in the future), ask away.  I can try to give more recent tactics if you like.

#4SBK91(Topic Creator)Posted 3/11/2012 7:42:32 PM
>implying there are other specialty runners

Mother always told me to be polite, or something to that effect. Hard to tell whats being said in the kitchen from the basement.

Giving me a work out today, I see.

That's what she said.

So for Pacifist+, the difference from standard P is that you may not use any attack that deals direct damage, but you can still toss foes into hazards via Grip so long as it doesn't directly damage the target or anyone else?

P/P+ sounds much more interesting than I thought it would. I was expecting glitch/AI abuse to avoid fights, but it's much simpler and sounds like you can still be quite aggressive.

I suggest you don't just jump into this until you've done NFR+ and NUR+ seperately.

Definitely. I'll probably mess around a bit at MAX to get the feel of the mechanics and do some damage comparisons before attempting the specialty runs.

Just don't use major skips such as findlestick shows off.

Got it.

corpse vortex

I saw you mention this in a different thread. Does rubbing a foe while spinning them against a large target cause the target to take damage?

I'll go ahead and make it so that you need only clear the fight, but if you want the extra challenge,

Similiar to using the Blades to handle Skorpius's Spawns in PAIN+?

Again, if you have questions (you probably will in the future), ask away.

Will do.

A huge thanks for all this. Really appreciate it.

I know someone who might be willing to lend me the game; in any event I should have it in a week or two.
#5MrStarkillerPosted 3/11/2012 9:04:32 PM
>kitchen from the basement
Quite the wit.

>what she said
The last she that pronoun could reference... You old dog. No lines you won't cross.

>P vs P+
>just don't deal direct damage
Indeed. If foes do it to themselves/each other or the environment handles it (ring-out, carbonite, laser gates, etc.) rather than through damage we deal or cause by slamming them into things and such...seems fine. I struggled with absolute avoidance and what that meant exactly (you might want to read over my notes at least after each of the noted runs).

I'm simplifying the rules a bit to give you better options with less problematic solutions. So a toss of a foe into various things that kill via damage is no good. Tossing them at instant death (so long as they don't hit others for damage along the way) is a-okay. In the non-plus version, you can whittle foes down to near death however you please (just so long as the kill stroke is not from you).

>interesting
Damn complicated to sort out is what it was. The change in the run rules should help though. It will be your run. You will be the one testing this revised run type from a fresh perspective.

>expecting glitch/AI abuse
Plenty of that along with simple skipping in general. Even without the revised rules, I had some means to fight back, but it all got rather questionable in some key areas (Sky City and Imperial Kashyyyk's last fights come to mind quickly).

It is my hope that this amendment cleans up at least those two parts for you, so respectable tactics are possible without edging on rule violations, questionable practice, etc. Should it prove easier to instant kill a foe rather than avoid them, you now have that without having to lure them to said case (you can cast them in often enough).

Let us run one small example. Imperial Kashyyyk's halfway point has a single Imperial Royal Guard, a laser gate (windows that I don't think you can ring out with *pretty sure*) and a caged Wookie.

In regular 'P', revised rules allow for the grab that tosses foes to whatever direction your back faces when you use it (causing damage, but not directly killing)...and have it send him into the laser gate. Maybe nearly kill him and then just let the Wookie out. Hell, grab the IRG and the Wookie can hit him while you're doing the animation.

P+ usage of the laser gate would be a matter of Grip towards it in your case. For Wookie use, grip to pick up or just distract the IRG while the Wookie pounds him (huge damage) would work just fine. You cannot simply avoid this fight as it happens. Tricking him into sending himself into the laser gate without just putting him in it... not so likely.

>MAX and damage comparisons first
Wise. VH on this game might surprise you at first. You'll adapt. I did.

>corpse vortex
If you know how to do it (or know where I've explained it before), then you're just asking how the damage works. It harms the agent and the target. Odds are that the agent will die first being that targets tend to be larger foe types. Most of the time, a dead agent is fine too. Indeed it is matter of rubbing the agent up/down along the body of the target while the agent spins. Multiple "Crash" bonuses (collision). Collisions are a two-way thing in SWFU as they 'can' be in GoWIII.

>similar to
Yes. A little something extra if you wish to suffer as I've suffered, but isn't required.

>week or two
Noted. If I miss it here, tell me at a GoW board or even one of the other Action boards you come across me at.
#6SBK91(Topic Creator)Posted 3/13/2012 4:51:55 AM
Would you mind if I don't provide coverage for standard Very Hard and below?
#7MrStarkillerPosted 3/13/2012 6:02:18 AM
Not at all. Do as you please. Though I would like your thoughts on this and that, noting oddities, likes/dislikes, favored powers/combos, ugprade worth, etc. Tidbits. Doesn't have to be tactics or even thorough. Not yet anyway. Just enjoy the run. It is too soon for the bothersome work that comes from write-ups.

I'll see about giving you his verbatim:

"I am at Anor Londo and ready to kill the bosses of Dragon Slayer Ornstein & Executioner Smough. I failed after several tries. My stats are almost as same as Hysypersakura’s, except my faith.

My current stats at Anor Londo:

+ 64 --> LEVEL
+ 15 --> VITALITY
+ 10 --> ATTUNEMENT
+ 27 --> ENDURANCE
+ 34 --> STRENGHT
+ 21 --> DEXTERITY
+ 11 --> RESISTANCE
+ 12 --> INTELLIGENCE
+ 8 --> FAITH

Pyromancies + 15 along with chaos storm , Great Combuston and Chaos Fire Whip

I am able to held all the weapons( some of them are need to be two handed)

I also have Dragon Slayer Bow and arrows (70)

I heard that do not upgrade pass 30 which could weaken your character, is that true?

Help> can you help me defeat Dragon SlayerOrnstein and Executioner Smough. They are hard to die.

My current problems:

I accidently crush the souls of Quelaag. S***, I am unable to forge the Quelaag’s furysword. This sword is fast and light which weights 3.5. I am in deep trouble right now.

Alternative weapon>

Demon’s Spear which I really like due to the long rang advantage along with lighting effect. I mean this one is pretty light and fast and I know this is not the best one but I have no choices right now.

Other weapons are good too, but are slow in Anor Londo. I do like Blight Town better after I experienced the area of Anor Londo.

Need some suggestions >

Is there a good weapon that will help me to complete the rest of the game without any struggles?

Any suggestion on how to improve my current character?"

As you can see, he's having a spot of trouble with Biggie-Smalls (common enough), botched the Furysword 'get', etc. I've noted some other troubles he's had in the past. I'd handled a few fights for him including the gaining of the Dark Knight Halberd (Capra and some other fools got destroyed while I was at it). I'm hoping he can do this bit for himself without me having to take over again.

Advice for him would be quite appreciated as I don't know enough to tell him short of just doing it myself (which sort of robs the run of value). He was going to visit today, but I need to get back to an exercise schedule and change my sleep schedule back to a daytime set-up before then.
#8SBK91(Topic Creator)Posted 3/13/2012 8:53:04 AM
I would like your thoughts on this and that, noting oddities, likes/dislikes, favored powers/combos, ugprade worth, etc.

Will do. Note that I do not have access to my PS3 during the weak, so progress will be made on weekends.

I'm going to respond directly to him, so their will be some redundancies.

I heard that do not upgrade pass 30 which could weaken your character, is that true?

Between 30-40 you'll get the biggest benefits for stat investment; after 40 it drops off quite a bit, and after 50 becomes neglible. STR can be left at 34, since two handing a weapon will give you an effective STR of 51, the highest practical value.

can you help me defeat Dragon SlayerOrnstein and Executioner Smough. They are hard to die.

They're by far the hardest boss fight in the game and took me roughly 20 tries, so don't feel bad.

If you're not aware, you can summon Solaire to help you fight them. Reverse your hollowing (you'll need 1 humanity each time) and go to the opposite side of the hall before S&O. His summoning sign is between two flights of stairs (there'll be an archer nearby). I'd suggest running along the top of the room (left from where you come in, up the stairs and all the way around) so as to avoid aggroeing the Sentinels. Kill the archer, then activate his summoning sign.

At this point you'll aggro one or both of the Sentinels. Stand on Solaire's sign, holding up your shield in there direction. Let the first one knock you off the platform. Soon after he should fall off beside you; kill him with Solaire's help, then kill the other. Beware of his white explosion and shield slam. The reason for killing the Sentinels is that if you just run straight to the boss door, Solaire has a habit of staying behind and trying to kill them himself before joining you, which ends up taking away a good part of his HP. You'll need him to distract the one while you go after the other. He'll almost certainly die as soon as one becomes super.

You may want to upgrade your Demon's Spear or Lightning Spear if you haven't already (see below). Regular Smough is weak to Lightning and two handed R1s from a full/nearly upgraded Lightning Spear do a number to him. Ornstein (both forms) is resistant to Lightning, and super Smough may or may not be.

From the very first bofire in Anor Londo, to the left is a room with a Mimic that will drop a Crystal Halberd. I've seen this weapon used to kill them in speed runs, so it might be enough to get you through. Note that it can't be repaired

You can leave Anor Londo if you really get stuck by going back to the Gargoyles who brought you here and 'talking' to them. From the Giant Blacksmith, walk outside (killing the Gargoyles) and open the door with the giants on the other side of it for a shortcut (so as to avoid doing the Archer section on your return trip).

Once back at Sen's Fortress, there's a shortcut that will let you skip the majority of the Fortress and provide a way back. Near where you fought the Iron Golem is a room with two cages that you can unlock, step inside and take down. You'll need a key first. In the top part of Sen's Fortress there's a merchant that requires you make a jump to reach him. Take the stairs down from the room he's in and follow the path to find an enemy guarding the Cage Key. If you haven't done so already, rescue Logan in the Fortress (he's a fairly complicated NPC to explain, so I'll just leave a link http://darksouls.wikidot.com/big-hat-logan).

I'd suggest raising you ATT to 12 (or whatever is the minimum for two slots) and buying Combustion off either Pyromancy trainer or Great Fireball off Quelana. I've seen them+Great Combustion used to great affect against S&O, though again have never used them myself.
#9SBK91(Topic Creator)Posted 3/13/2012 9:16:25 AM(edited)
If you don't mind making an early trip to the Catacombs, you can get some VERY nice things, including Fire weapons (which both S&O are weak against). There's a Blacksmith that starts with the ability to upgrade to Fire +5 off the bat down there; just upgrade whatever weapons to +5 and 10 Green Titanite Shards (can be bought off the Giant Blacksmith for 3800 souls each, IIRC) for each you'll want at Fire +5. More details on the Catacombs can be found below.

Now for the fight itself.

Most of the time you'll want to be circling around the pair. Which one to kill first is...tricky. Super Ornstain is much easier to fight, but much harder to damage, given his pain in the ass hitbox and resistance to Lightning. Most of super Smough's attacks (most notably his lightning ground slam) will almost certainly one shot you, but he can be trapped behind the pillars (even once broken) and it's easier to identify an opening.

Virtually all of super Ornstein's attacks can be avoided by staying RIGHT next to him and holding block (the exception being his ground slam). His most dangerous attack is said slam, followed by a grab (he'll jump back and try to stab you with an electrified spear). IIRC it can be avoided simply by continuously running towards him. His vulnerable to two or three two handed slashes from a moderate speed weapon (preferebly something with a horizontal swing). Once you get the hang of it the fight becomes a simple endurance test, and if you got a fire weapon shouldn't be too hard.

I've only fought super Smough once, but his vulnerable times are more or less identical to that of regular Smoughs and again abuse the pillars.

Once you've chosen which super you wish to fight, the two-on-one section shouldn't be difficult with your Pyromancy Flame and Demon Spear, especially with Solaire's help. For Ornstein, just get him away from Smough and use Pyromancy. For Smough, try to lure him away from Ornstein, wait until he uses his ground slam or vertical hammer strike then hit him a few times with While Blocking/2h R1s from your Demon/Lightning Spear. Simple strafing with your shield up should stop/avoid the majority of their attacks. Pyromancy should also prove effective.

In summary, be sure to call Solaire, upgrade your preferred spear, check out the Crystal Halberd, and use Pyromancy. If you're really stuck, leave Anor Londo and grab a Fire weapon. Proceed to trash them both.

Demon’s Spear which I really like due to the long rang advantage along with lighting effect. I mean this one is pretty light and fast and I know this is not the best one but I have no choices right now.

The Demons Spear and Lightning Spear from Sen's Fortress are both great weapon choices for your current predicament. With Andrei dead, there's no reason to hoard Demon Titanite or Titanite Chunks anymore; upgrade both weapons to as high a point as possible. If you have any other +10 weapon you're fond of now, consider upgrading that to Lightning instead of the Spear.

Is there a good weapon that will help me to complete the rest of the game without any struggles?

Yes. In the Catacombs, in the last area near the boss (Wheel Skeletons will be present) there will be a black knight up on a ledge who can drop the Black Knight Great Axe. If you can get this, you'll be golden. Equip the Gold Covetous Serpent Ring and 3 or so humanity beforehand to increase your chances of him dropping the weapon.

He will not respawn after dying, so you must have the ring and humanity on when you kill him the first time. The axe is upgraded via twinkling titanite, which can be bought from the Giant blacksmith, and deals massive damage. Increasing your STR to 36 will let you one hand it.
#10SBK91(Topic Creator)Posted 3/13/2012 8:56:30 AM
In order to kill the skeletons in the Catacombs before killing the Necromancers, you'll need a Divine weapon. There's an Occult Club in Anor Londo in the room with Havel's Armor (from the bonfire with Solaire, go by the stairs near the Silver Knight with a sword, enter the room on the left, go in the fireplace and hit the fake wall. There'll be a room with chest (one of which is a Mimic) that'll have the Occult Club and Havel's armor). Take the club to any blacksmith and downgrade it for a Divine Club+5. This should be more than strong enough to take you through the Catacombs.

You may want to kill the boss of the Catacombs right away. He's by far the easiest boss in the game, and doing so will give you the ability to reinforce bonfires a second time for 15 Estus flasks and he'll probably drop one of his masks. These masks are by far the best head pieces in the game. Note though that the only way to get to one of the required areas in the game is past him and you'll need to place the Lord Vessel to complete it. Said area also one of the most frustrating to complete.

Any suggestion on how to improve my current character?

With Andrei dead, my biggest suggestion is to begin pumping INT (to around 40), grab Sorceries and forge Enchanted weapons. Finishing the Logan questline will provide you with all the good Sorceries and the game's two best Catalyst. Sorceries will become much more powerful than Pyromancies and have better range. Note Homing Crystal Soulmass is the strongest.

Enchanted weapons, which scale with INT, are the strongest path in the game, and only worse than Normal in that they require higher stat investment (not a problem, since you don't worry about PVP) and can't be buffed (the big kicker, but with Andrei dead you can't get any good buffable weapons anyway).

To forge said weapons, you'll need the Enchanted Ember, which is easily found in Darkroot Forest, in a chest in the area before Sif. The blacksmith to make the weapons is at the New Londo Ruins, in the area immediately around the elevator before the ghosts and with the non-hostile undead around. You'll need a +5 weapon to make a Magic weapon, and a Magic+5 weapon to make Enchanted. Magic weapons are made with Green Titanite Shards (Giant Blacksmith) while Enchanted need Blue Titanite Chunks, which can be farmed from the Crystal Golems near Darkroot Basin.

My biggest recommendation for Enchanted Weapons are Estoc (found in the same area as the blacksmith in New Londo), Shotel (Sen's Fortress), Gargoyle Tail Axe/Reinforced Club (Gargoyles and Undead Merchant in the Undead Burg, respectively) Zweihander (the graveyard near Firelink Shrine) and the Great Scythe (Catacombs).

NOTE: If you have the Black Knight Great Axe, you by no means need these weapons, though they'll probably help, as well as give you some variety. Estoc is like a spear, but much faster and backstabs/ripostes harder. Shotel's fast and it's R2s ignore shields (very nice). Zweihander will likely outdamage the Black Knight Great Axe hit per hit, has nice range/AOE, and great stun/knockback.

Great Scythe is arguably the second best 'large' weapon in the game (the best, Murakumo, probably isn't worth it Enchanted given you'll have the BKGA and Great Scythe, is a bit harder to obtain, and means more time grinding). It's running attack has large AOE and it's heavy attacks are superb. With max Stamina, you'll be able to use a 2h R1 R1 R2 R2 and 1h R1x5->f+R2 for great damage (likely more than the BKGA).

Note that 1h attacks deal more damage per stamina than 2h so long as your AR is high enough and the STR bonus doesn't make a large difference (since they're Enchanted, it shouldn't) The Gargoyle Tail Axe and Reinforced Club basically serve the same purpose, you 1h/2h it, mash R1 and things die. The Tail Axe is stronger and has better reach, but the Reinforced Club has a better R1 and stunning ability. The difference isn't big, so choose whichever you like.