Fatal Flaw

#41terran3999999Posted 7/25/2012 7:34:27 AM
Wow, he's pathetic. And he claims he's calm?

You're not going get any supporters by acting like your the son of God and all the crap that comes out of your mouth is suddenly a written law.
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Katawa Shoujo: The visual novel that defies and kick logic to the curb.
Official contender to fight for Lilly as waifu.
#42cloud_8f8fPosted 7/25/2012 8:58:20 AM
We need to calm this topic down. Or else, we'll attract the "almighty" MJEmirzian. /sarcasm

He loves these kinds of topics.
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Official Cloud Strife of the Dissidia Duodecim Board
Currently playing: Dissidia 012[duodecim]: Final Fantasy
#43GeekyDad(Topic Creator)Posted 7/25/2012 1:21:11 PM
Well, honestly, after about 35 hours with the game, I can see the appeal of being locked into movement. But I don't agree that being able to undo moves is somehow cheating. Granted, once you take your turn, it should be the end of it. However, the entire premise of outcome predictions is solely so you can formulate a good strategy. And if you can't see an outcome prediction before moving, that creates an entirely different beast of a game.

I'm absolutely loving this game, but it's not perfect. Do I still feel you should be able to undo moves? Well, maybe not so much anymore. I've gotten accustomed to what's on offer here and kind of fallen in love with that. Would it bother me if you could? No.
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"The hardcore you've been waiting for!"
#44Just JoePosted 7/25/2012 1:57:42 PM(edited)
Given that being able to undo movement would render the traps in this game all but irrelevant, I think you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone, that in this game specifically it wouldn't be cheating.
Personally, I think that this game holds the player's hand enough as it is, via the CT-list.

And unrelated, but terran, shouldn't that be "kicks" not "kick" in your signature? Fun lil' trip, that one.

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~R.I.P. Reggie White #92~ NYY: 058 - 039
Mister, mister, have you seen my mad skills?? *proceeds to beat box furiously*- Dodavion 2000-2001.
#45GeekyDad(Topic Creator)Posted 7/26/2012 7:15:19 AM
Just Joe posted...
Given that being able to undo movement would render the traps in this game all but irrelevant, I think you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone, that in this game specifically it wouldn't be cheating.
Personally, I think that this game holds the player's hand enough as it is, via the CT-list.

And unrelated, but terran, shouldn't that be "kicks" not "kick" in your signature? Fun lil' trip, that one.


That's not true at all. In most other SRPGs, if you move to a trap, then you're locked into the move. Otherwise, you can undo. It's an evolution of the mechanic that makes sense and works.
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"The hardcore you've been waiting for!"
#46Just JoePosted 7/26/2012 12:11:53 PM
I'll have to take your word on that, as I don't make use of the feature in any of the games that I know of it being in, so I can't pretend my knowledge on the matter is all that explicit.

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~R.I.P. Reggie White #92~ NYY: 059 - 039
Mister, mister, have you seen my mad skills?? *proceeds to beat box furiously*- Dodavion 2000-2001.
#47KouramaPosted 7/26/2012 6:39:42 PM
Just Joe posted...
I'll have to take your word on that, as I don't make use of the feature in any of the games that I know of it being in, so I can't pretend my knowledge on the matter is all that explicit.


FFTA2 does this.
#48RaijiniliPosted 7/26/2012 9:46:54 PM
have you played raijinii?

No. It'd be interesting to have someone to explain to me why that game (well, any game) is objectively bad, if only he'd get his head out of his hate.

... it requires an atypical strategy in order to let them survive so you can actually recruit them.

That sounds optional.

I do not feel that the inability to take back 'moves' is a fatal flaw. This is a strategy game, and that you should be actually strategising and planning your moves before you make them, to add an option to immediately undo your choices severely cheapens not only the experience, but the gameplay itself.

It's not fatal, but outside of extenuating circumstances (i.e. mechanics necessity), I don't see a good reason for a game to specifically disallow takebacks (as opposed to simply not implementing them) within a turn. Rather, the only good reason to specifically disallow takebacks (again, within a turn) is if an action can grant new information (whether to the player or to the opponent) that would affect the decision.

In other words, any of these can disqualify a takeback within a turn:
- If the action has a random chance of success (i.e. teleport, or an attack).
- If the action has a possibility of revealing information that was not previously (supposed to be) available (example: that there's a trap, or that the ??? enemy has 1HP left, or if the character was invisible)
- I don't remember.

Strategy-wise, takebacks just help you plan better without having to remember all the mechanics (which is, strategy-wise, supposed to be available information, so you technically won't gain new information).

The only other category of reasons I can think of is player psychology and game logistics: namely, takebacks take time, and repeated takebacks (e.g. in chess) can trip up your opponent. Neither one is relevant for a one-player strategy game.

I will be happy to entertain a debate with you on your other points if you retract this statement and offer an apology for my brain having to absorb the shock of such a ridiculous claim.

You're funny.

I say that sarcastically.

In most other SRPGs, if you move to a trap, then you're locked into the move. Otherwise, you can undo. It's an evolution of the mechanic that makes sense and works.

Most other SRPGs probably don't have traps. What you're proposing would allow a strategy of "for each square in my range, move to it, then take it back" as a degenerate trapfinding method. What games do you know that allow this?
#49Just JoePosted 7/26/2012 10:19:05 PM
From: Kourama | #047
FFTA2 does this.

There were traps in A2? Has it been so long since I played it that I don't remember that?

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~R.I.P. Reggie White #92~ NYY: 059 - 039
Mister, mister, have you seen my mad skills?? *proceeds to beat box furiously*- Dodavion 2000-2001.
#50thinkingofwarPosted 7/27/2012 12:43:11 AM
You're funny.

I say that sarcastically.


It's hard to be as funny as the guy who suggested challenge was irrelevant to scoring a game.