Delita's Ending (Spoilers)

#1mega_mouse_fartPosted 1/2/2013 6:59:07 AM
SPOILERS


Let me begin with mentioning how powerful the impact of this final scene between Delita and Ovelia is. The sad little musicbox theme playing in the background just shoots this scene out into the atmosphere. What a way to end possibly the best STORY ever, IMHO.

Delita professes his feelings to Ramza for Ovelia. I believe Delita cared for Ovelia truly, and while he did use her, he too loved her. Ovelia however, is most likely under the influence that Delita killed Orran and the woman agent of the church (I forget her name,) even after begging Delita not to do so.

Ovelia stabs Delita, not even letting him finish what he was saying. Ovelia, being young, and not familiar with combat, does not know where to stab to best finish him off. She pretty much just hits a beehive with a stick and then just stands there. Delita, confused by this, mutters her name in disbelief. Ovelia lays down Delita's sin for him to see - his manipulation of all those around him and his lack of appreciation for the lives of those who have died during his rise to the top. Delita takes the very knife he was stabbed wtih from her hands and thrusts it into her little body. Being a seasoned warrior, Delita's strike is true and clearly ends her life almost immediately. Ovelia is not the hardiest of people anyway. Low hp, lol.

I believe Delita stabs her out of confusion and anger. He loves her, yet he uses her... and this surely places guilt in his heart. He even bought her flowers... his reward? The knife. Before he can realize what he is doing, he has killed his queen, his wife... he stumbles away from her limp body and drops the blade. He stambles away and falls to his knees. He looks up into the great blue and asks a question to the only person he could ever really hope to call friend.

"Ramza... what did you get? Me? I... I got this."

Ramza, what did you get in the end? What did your choices bring you in the end? Mine have wrought this.

And what exactly is it Delita has? Betrayal? Loneliness? Guilt? Evil?

Or is it pride? Satisfaction? Relief?

An amazing ending... truly a game like no other.
#2EfratePosted 1/2/2013 7:52:34 AM
Or is it pride? Satisfaction? Relief?

These. He manipulated and used her until she rebelled, and then like all his other tools, was discarded. He says it with a smirk on his face and likely blames her death on some enemy, giving him an excuse to galvanize the people to take them down, all while playing his part of mournful king.

I do not think he ever loved her, merely told her what she needed to hear and let her believe whatever she wanted. He mocked her when she was in huge emotional conflict to drive her over the brink, then offered her a little hope so she grabbed onto it because she was drowning in emotion, and he used that chain to help bind her to him regardless until she was no longer needed. He manipulated her rather perfectly up until then end, where he then just got rid of her and moved on.
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That was the greatest post I have ever read on these boards, Effy. I laughed, I cried, I ate a whole gallon of ice cream.
KrossRoads
#3mega_mouse_fart(Topic Creator)Posted 1/2/2013 10:16:31 AM
You are completely and rightfully entitled to your opinion, though I do not share in it.

I cannot accept that Delita did not have some emotional attachment to Ovelia. He sore on his sister's soul for her, and professed his feelings for her to Ramza.

It may not be love, but something is there, however small.

And is it truly out of satisfaction, pride, and relief that Delita stumbles away from his wife's body? Is it out of those things that he falls to his knees and thinks about his one true friend, Ramza? Does he ask his friend who is not even there that question out of those reasons?

If so, why? Why would the prideful ask such a thing? And he's not even asking a real person, namely, the ideal he has in his head of his friend. Why would the satisfied turn their mind to a friend who has no bearing on his situation? Who ever since his sister was killed hasn't even been important to him? Would the prideful ask such a meaningless question? Why would he, so filled with pride surely his mind focused on other matters than his dead friend.
#4terran3999999Posted 1/2/2013 2:58:08 PM
Hey hey, this looks like it could be an interesting topic.

I would like to first address that I'm not really good with words but still want to throw in my opinion.

I would have to kinda agree with Efrate and call BS on Delita's "feelings" for Ovelia. If he truly, truly loved her should he really not have understood what happened during that scene? If you ask me, if he did loved her he would have gladly died for her or at least left the kingdom alone.
To pull a plausible? comparison, I bring up Matsuno's other works, despite that it was always the main hero that does all the work in freeing the kingdom of strife and bringing peace the main hero is more than willingly gave up any position of power and influence and even in some cases leave their very own homeland.(Destin for King Tristan, Denam for Queen Versalie, etc) In this case, Queen Ovelia is the true and rightful heir.

If Delita was such a "honorable" and "noble" person, could he not have done the same thing? His revenge was done and all of the corrupt politicians have all been killed off. Though on the other hand one could argue that Ivalice really needed a "strong" leader especially after The Lions War....


And this is not a personal attack to anybody but for some reason people find it so baffling that Delita could have manipulated Ovelia and she somehow could not have noticed it. Efrate more than explains how that's possible and has nobody seriously ever heard of the Stockholm Syndrome?


He sore on his sister's soul for her, and professed his feelings for her to Ramza.
Or that all could be a ruse to make sure the actors followed their directions. Delita has lied before, remember how he sworn "loyalty" to Lord Goltanna? Or what about framing T.G. Cid for murder?

I'm going to apologize in advance if I do confuse you but I'm going to need to bring in D&D alignments into this.
Why would the prideful ask such a thing?
It's because of pride, or maybe even confusion that Delita musk ask this. Ramza sacrificed everything all for the sake of virtue, well and his dear important sister, yet he gained nothing out of it. But what happens to Delita? He didn't need to "sacrifice" anyone important to him since Tetra has already been taken from him and he already has everything he needs yet why does he feel so empty or wrong? Perhaps a part of him realizes that he has become something he hates very much, Lawful Evil.(or at least Lawful Neutral)

Who ever since his sister was killed hasn't even been important to him?
I have to say you're wrong on this part, Delita used Ramza because he knew Ramza was the only one who would be able to stand up to the Templars even if it means costing Ramza's life. A part of Delita might have realized this too and feels guilt out of it.

Another part would be Tetra's death, despite Ramza having no hand in her death he still blames himself and feels responsible for it. Ramza more than openly shows this guilt which Delita may have seen it and used it to his advantage. And let's be honest, Ramza is Chaotic Good to a fault, he might not ever raised arms to Delita if Delita needed to kill Ramza himself which makes for another good pawn.
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Katawa Shoujo: The visual novel that defies and kicks logic to the curb.
Official contender to fight for Lilly as waifu.
#5mega_mouse_fart(Topic Creator)Posted 1/2/2013 6:35:15 PM
Being prideful of oneself does not lead to self hatred. Being prideful of oneself is likeness in the virtues and deeds of oneself. Self-loath is more the product of regret and shame. Can Delita be these things and prideful all at once? Possibly, but that would make him bi-polar. He doesn't exhibit signs of this throughout the game, though on more than one occasion he displays a seething anger buried underneath his skin that on occasion will lash out. For example, when he chokes Ramza in Chapter 1 or when the female agent of the church accuses him of manipulating Ramza.

I do not imagine Delita's ambitions a product of pride and a desire to simply become a powerful king. He admits in story that his goal is to level the playing field of Ivalice-to bring the noble to their knees; to eye to eye with the common man.

I make no claim that Delita did not use Ovelia. He states in game that he does just so, which is a big party I presume in why Ovelia .attempts to take his life. But I do not believe Delita to be the compulsive liar he is made out to be. His sister was all and most dear to him, her memory not something I can see him sully so easily as to simply convince Ovelia he is genuine.

And I don't believe Delita ever truly understood the gravity of the Auracite situation. Delita knew of the Confessor's plot to use the Zodiac Brave legend to help sway the masses to the church, but he himself had not seen firsthand the horror of the Lucavi. But indeed, the church's downfall and the Lucavi'd defeat he did entrust to Ramza. But had he known what was truly at stake, he may have taken more action against the church and Folmarv.

And let's not forget Delita's mercy. The woman agent by all means should've been killed if Delita was the murderous snake most perceive him as, but he spared her, and Orran too! Both knew just as much as Ovelia. If Delita killed Ovelia to be done with her and to have one less person knowing the truth, his actions of mercy towards Orran and the agent were most out of character.

Delita was a manipulator and black of heart. His intentions noble, his methods dark. He is one in the same as Wiegraff. Delita felt betrayed by Ovelia, and as we know, his rage is great. Without thinking, he buries the dagger within her chest (Im guessing it was her chest,) and stumbles away in disbelief at what has transpired.

So does Delita realize his path in life has turned him into that which he hates? Or does he realize that in the end, with all his glory and kingship, his future is a hollow one? These questions are my interpretation.

Oh, and I want to point out that for Delita, whether Ovelia knows all or none, having a dead Ovelia is a much greater obstacle than a living one. It's the reason he married Ovelia that he becomes royalty in the first place. Her death could easily spark another war-maybe that there would be those who feel foul play involved, or that without her his claim to the throne is forfeit.

Most likely, Delita employs a method to either find a girl with a similar appearance and have her play the part of Ovelia or he blames her death on an assasin. He may even reveal her assasination attempt and claim she is banished to some dungeon or exiled from Ivalice, though this action could trigger war so I doubt it. Most likely, she is replaced with a look alike.
#6EfratePosted 1/2/2013 9:51:11 PM(edited)
Starting a war requires tremendous resources and good leaders, and neither of those were left near the end of FFT. No one had that combination of factors but Delita.

- The Northen Sky is devastated. The Belouves and Larg headed that up, and we are given no indication that anyone with a similar amount of power or any influence at all is around still. Dyce and Larg would have seen to it that anyone else who made a bid for power whilst they were alive was dealt with swiftly and permanently. They had the area in an iron grip, and they got support from Elmdore who is from the opposite side of the country, so they eiter didn't need or didn't have anyone of note under them. Which would also explain why House Belouve is so powerful and well known, there is no one else anywhere near their power and influence. Conjecture but plausible.

- The Southern Sky is likewise nearly gone. Kabanbrif, Bolmna, and Blansh are the only notables left. None are given any titles, Gelwin was minister and they likely are as well, meaning bureaucrats, having some influence but not nobles, nor having significant wealth. They also saw their King murder Gelwin on suspicion and a criminals testimony, heard about the death of the greatest warrior of the 50 years war Orlandu, and never feature in anything prominently after kabanbrif's one scene in Ch. 2 and the one meeting at the start of Ch. 3. They are likely (and rightly) terrified of Delita and their only incentive to do anything with Ovelia was to use her to give Goltanna a pretense to challenge the other claims. Their side "won" so they wouldn't do anything even if they could.

- Elmdore and Ludovich have both been killed, their houses finished, and they remained the only other nobles of note we learned of. Most of Ludovich's forces, if not all, were killed by Lucavi. He has his schools of assassins, but if Rafa is any indication, they are likely not all ready to go avenging. And the schools were set up to find Rafa and Malak so after he did they likely stopped building, and seeing as how you do not fight any of his assassins in the greater Riovannes area, the practice could have conceivably died out.
Elmdore was in it with Larg and Dyce before he fell in battle and became a Lucavi, and do to the little resistance from him on your way to riovannes, his troops either fell, deserted, or were sent to the northern sky.

- The Church is in shambles, no leaders, no shrine knights, and even when they had all of that after the flooding of Betha the people had enough strength to ignore them and not let them mediate a dispute as a supposedly neutral party, they wouldn't follow them on a war against a rightful king who's wife was tragically killed by whomever Delita pointed the finger at. He'd sell it that way and they would buy it. I think there are allusions to him reducing the power of the church to be very inconsequential in VS as well but I am not certain of that but I remember it from somewhere.

- The former queen is a foreigner, untrusted, and for all we know still imprisoned in a tower somewhere with no real power, especially now that with Ovelia and her husband crowned she has no claim in any way shape or form.

What is left is Delita, beloved by the people, who brought peace and ended massive wars, famine, and such. No one is going to challenge him, which is why his rule is considered a golden age, just the way he planned.
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That was the greatest post I have ever read on these boards, Effy. I laughed, I cried, I ate a whole gallon of ice cream.
KrossRoads
#7mega_mouse_fart(Topic Creator)Posted 1/3/2013 7:04:44 AM
I am assuming there are many more nobles, perhaps not of Beoulve status, but noble no less, within Ivalice. I could be wrong, but if what we see is all there is, that is a trifle amount and laughable. From what I understood in the game, nearly all knights are of some nobility.
#8EfratePosted 1/3/2013 8:51:02 AM
Aye there are likely more, but minor and not of note in terms of wealth, prestige, or power. You need a dycedarg or a larg or somesuch to be a face and finace a rebellion, and it has to benefit you in some tangilble way. For a better tomorrow, maybe, isn't enough for most. A noble is still better and wealthier than most commoners, even if Delita leveled the playing field and gave the commoners more rights, at the end of the day, would an overthrow of a government the people love benefit you? You then have an angry populace, war debt, and no recognizable claim on the throne. You've used valuable time and resources to achieve... what exactly? Fear that someone will rise up and kill for you taking out their rightful rules?

Rule over a disenfranchised land, with all the problems laid at your feet? That's about all that would be left.. There are many other nobles I am sure, but none of note that could have anything to gain. All the great houses are toppled, their wealth gone as plunder or otherwise gone, and there is only one notable position of power left, King/Queen, who has everything versus your nothing. Delita's rule is secure with the marriage, any turmoil that might have been raised has been quelled rather ruthlessly. None can stand against him, exactly as planned.
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That was the greatest post I have ever read on these boards, Effy. I laughed, I cried, I ate a whole gallon of ice cream.
KrossRoads
#9Umbra_ChaiPosted 1/4/2013 11:03:15 PM(edited)
Every time a Delita thread shows up I like to remind people that he was, canon, at least in the PSX version, a good king. This is stated in the manual. I know the whole point of the game was showing that history is full of crap, but it can't be that off.. Delita did well after the game ended. If you forget that, you're just being biased.

That being said, I think Delita mostly saw Ovelia as a replacement for his sister. I imagine he did love her, but he always struck me as more mission oriented than a people person, so the love was less the "Romeo being crushed by the prangs of separation of his love from himself" and more the practical version of it. Yes, he absolutely only married her for per position, but the, that's how marriage was back then among anyone that wasn't pisspoor.

Also, I REALLY don't see how he manipulated Ovelia at all besides getting her to marry him. I also really don't feel much for the fact that she stabbed him, and it more or less confirms to me that she's a poor girl that really wasn't supposed to be royalty in the first place. I just finished reading an LP of the PSX version, and I remember being struck as confused when Ovelia accused Delita of killing Ramza.

I'm going TL;DR myself: There's only one instance in the game that happens early on that Delita can be accused of being an outright manipulative bastard. Every other time it looks to me that he's just letting people do what they want and making the most out of it to his advantage.

I think Delita gets a lot of flac for not being all that evil of a guy.

EDIT: I read the thread cause I felt like it. Some guy brought up the golden age thing, so let me clarify a bit: IT wouldn't have been much of a Golden Age if stuff was as bad as it was before, but with Delita in charge. Different guy, same hat doesn't really fly, so he did have to at least make stuff better for people. Maybe not "Flying unicorns feeding the masses and ending all poverty" good, but.

Also, it said Delita's rule was the start of the Golden Age, IIRC (Or something similar), which implies he left something approaching a good system after the fact. Just consider that.
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If I reference a man named Furby, I'm talking about myself.
#10EfratePosted 1/5/2013 3:49:07 AM
It was a golden age because of what he did. Killed all opposition, crushed any power potentially able to oppose him. No war, so taxes got lowered, and enough food and work rebuilding so poverty levels were reduced. The lack of massive noble overseers increasing tax and driving the class gap further and further apart to finance wars and personal fortunes. Goltanna tripled an already increased tax as the commoners paid for the 50 year war. Something similar likely happened on the other side. The people were downtrodden to extremes before he took over and ended the war. Delita brought the people up by making nobles more accountable, and likely cut taxes back, likely do to a seizure of funds from the dead nobles and church.

As far as not manipulating Ovelia and make her marry him which I consider a major manipulation if nothing else, things happened a ton that says he did.

She is told she was a replacement for a dead princess, her entire world, all the suffering she bore imposed for peace among the people was for nothing. Everything you have ever done or beleived, and why you did it, was proven pointless. That's quite a blow. In drastically fragile mindset, Delita comes and mocks her throwing her already unstable self well over the cliff. She is imprisioned and hurt, and pushed too far. THEN, and only then, does he offer to comfort her and she floods with emotion. He has sucessfully manipulated her to rely on him and only him at this point. All according to plan. When they are crossing the falls in one of their bonus battles, she looks like she starts to run away and is brought up short by the arrow at her feet. The enemies talk of how they'll kill her. You finish the battle, and Delita shows it again.

Ovelia: Arriving sooner will no more make me a princess than arriving later.
That day you saved me at these falls seems so distant now. Your promise to cut
me free from the strings of those who manipulate me - it was an empty one,
wasn't it?

Delita: Empty or no, you've no choice but to follow me. The hounds are loosed.
No bolt-hole is left to you. Run, and you'll still be hunted down as the
princess who stands in the way of the throne.

Ovelia: Why must you say such things!? (pre battle script)

Delita: Was that enough to lift the gauze from your eyes? Bathe the earth in
bitter tears, and it will still be all too content to drink your blood. Bemoan
your fate and wait for it to claim you, or take my hand and live. The choice is
yours.

Ovelia: It appears...I have no choice.

From the game script FAQ by Revenant Things.

Then there is the battle with Zalmour at the church in ch 4, where when you first meet Balmafula. After Ramza walks offscreen

Valmafra: You mean to let him go?

Delita: He acts as I expected he would.

Valmafra: Even your friends are only pieces to be played.

We've seen this trend all game, he manipulates, uses and then usually murders people to get his way. He may have made life better for the commoners, but he did it over a mountain of corpses and bathed in the blood of many. His way was better, at last he thought, and he made it so his way was the only way.
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That was the greatest post I have ever read on these boards, Effy. I laughed, I cried, I ate a whole gallon of ice cream.
KrossRoads