Delita's Ending (Spoilers)

#11KYOJIROKAGENUMAPosted 1/5/2013 8:45:30 AM
^ Those two scenes really push home to me Delita's tragic image.

I like the idea of Delita being Lawfully Evil. His last words really seem to bring this home, the fact that after all of the betrayal and killing, he ask the one person a question who would probably answer him honestly.

In fact Ramza most likely knows how manipulative Delita is, but sadly, possibly out of guilt, never rises against him. Ramza definitely understands Delita's lust for revenge against the nobility, and as Ramza is more and more slowly realizing how the world beyond the castle walls work, he seem to be tragically watching his childhood friend fall apart and behave in a while negative, totally understandable way.
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Kill anyone who gets in the way... Actually nevermind that... JUST KILL EVERYONE! - Kyojiro Kagenuma - WoTS 2 PSN:kingmalak
#12terran3999999Posted 1/5/2013 9:39:18 AM
Damn, haven't checked back into this topic in a while.

*puts back on debating cap*
The woman agent by all means should've been killed if Delita was the murderous snake most perceive him as, but he spared her,
I can't remember the exact reason for this but its either Valmafula? really had no loyalty to the Church or that she really had no proof. It would be just her words against his.

and Orran too!
Seriously? Go brush up your memory before speaking again, did you forget that part where Orran got burned at the stake?


Oh, and I want to point out that for Delita, whether Ovelia knows all or none, having a dead Ovelia is a much greater obstacle than a living one.

Before their "happy marriage"? Yes. After? HELL NO. He's already part of the royalty and last I check Ovelia never had any offspring.

Her death could easily spark another war-maybe that there would be those who feel foul play involved
Except nobody knew the truth besides Delita and I guess someone else was there too....since Alasomething was able to figure it out.

Most likely, Delita employs a method to either find a girl with a similar appearance and have her play the part of Ovelia
Now you're just spouting crap.

he blames her death on an assassin.
This would actually make sense and it will work seeing as how the people see him as some great saint king.

He may even reveal her assasination attempt and claim she is banished to some dungeon or exiled from Ivalice, though this action could trigger war so I doubt it. Most likely, she is replaced with a look alike.
More crap.


If you forget that, you're just being biased.
The same could be said about you.
You seem to deliberately ignore the methods he used to bring about the Golden Age of peace. It was built upon a mountain of corpses bathed in rivers of blood.

and I remember being struck as confused when Ovelia accused Delita of killing Ramza.
Which he indirectly did, he knew that Ramza was the only one who could have stopped the Templars even if it means Ramza's life and he felt no remorse for it. Around here we call that 'conspiracy to murder'.

A lot of you seem to forget that Delita is a very gray character(a popular trait of Matsuno's work). Yes, Delita did end the war on his side and brought about an era of peace but the methods he used was downright horrible and brutal. Delita is no way in hell an innocent man, which a lot of you stupidly seem to peg him as.
I'll just leave this question: does the end justify the needs?

@Efrate: you gotta use the two magic words: Stockholm Syndrome!
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Katawa Shoujo: The visual novel that defies and kicks logic to the curb.
Official contender to fight for Lilly as waifu.
#13EfratePosted 1/5/2013 10:46:06 AM
@terran due to the post, I laid it out piecemeal. easier to digest.

And isn't it ends justify the means? not the needs. ;-)
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That was the greatest post I have ever read on these boards, Effy. I laughed, I cried, I ate a whole gallon of ice cream.
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#14Umbra_ChaiPosted 1/5/2013 11:13:45 AM
terran3999999 posted...
If you forget that, you're just being biased.
The same could be said about you.
You seem to deliberately ignore the methods he used to bring about the Golden Age of peace. It was built upon a mountain of corpses bathed in rivers of blood.


To be fair, I try to paint him more golden in here then I do point out his negatives, because everyone hounds on those. He's gray as all hell, but I think he's more benevolent than people claim.


and I remember being struck as confused when Ovelia accused Delita of killing Ramza.
Which he indirectly did, he knew that Ramza was the only one who could have stopped the Templars even if it means Ramza's life and he felt no remorse for it. Around here we call that 'conspiracy to murder'.


... It's conspiracy to murder for not stopping someone from doing something that'll get them killed? What? By that same logic, Delita was conspiring to kill him since the end of Chapter 1! Leaving him alone and stranded in the middle of a frozen wasteland, clearly intent to murder.


A lot of you seem to forget that Delita is a very gray character(a popular trait of Matsuno's work). Yes, Delita did end the war on his side and brought about an era of peace but the methods he used was downright horrible and brutal. Delita is no way in hell an innocent man, which a lot of you stupidly seem to peg him as.
I'll just leave this question: does the end justify the needs?


Yeah, but remember the people he was using were DICKS. Sure, he didn't go the Ramza path of "EVERYONE JUST GET ALONG!!", but come on, what did he do to them besides just let people do what they were going to do anyway, then just working it to his advantage. Inaction is not the same as action. Considering he was only a dick to, well, dicks, I'm less inclined to paint his actions as "Evil for the sake of good" and more "Gray for the sake of good."



Here's his evil actions, I'd say:

1) Someone, last time I had this, pointed out that the Noble Delita pointed out for conspiracy during/at the end of Chapter 2 (Who he killed to get next to Goltana) was framed, and this is canon in game. That's actually fairly evil, if he did do the framing (The game says he was framed, but doesn't say by who), but I'll give the "Evil" side this, because hey, they need points.

2) Valmalfa. This one I kinda sorta remember that he was supposed to have cut out her tongue at the end, which is the only thing I'm kind of iffy on if it did happen. Reguardless of this, we know he left her alive at the end, which is confusing, since there doesn't seem to be a reason for it.

3) And of course, killing Ovelia at the end. This one I can see how people can't forgive him for (Hey, I liked her too!), but really, there's not much of a choice here. Let her live, there's one of a few results, none of them pleasant:

A) Either she kills him (Right then or elsewhere), which we can all agree wouldn't be good in the long run ("Yah, The Evil King is dead... but who will run the kingdom?" Remember that Ovelia kinda sucks at that).

B) She doesn't kill him, but still harbors that resentment, and probably helps create a conspiricy and a Final Fantasy type team to go against the evil king, which would create a crappy squeal, and no one wants that.

C) Delita kills her, as we see happened. This is the more stable of the outcomes, since Ovelia was kind of a trophy wife at this point anyway.

I mean, do NOT mistake me, I don't give Delita a solid gold "SUPER HERO OF THE WORLD, CAN'T DO ANY WRONG" medal or anything, But he's at WORST gray, not the black and white a lot of people (Including me at times) try to paint him as.
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#15terran3999999Posted 1/5/2013 12:01:11 PM
... It's conspiracy to murder for not stopping someone from doing something that'll get them killed? What?
No, and your twisting my word. It's conspiracy because Delita knew what would have happened yet he didn't lift a single finger to help Ramza and most importantly he wanted Ramza off the stage.

By that same logic, Delita was conspiring to kill him since the end of Chapter 1! Leaving him alone and stranded in the middle of a frozen wasteland, clearly intent to murder.
Uh what? If Ramza was able to climb up that frozen battlefield he can easily climb down it and I don't think the game said Ramza was injured in the blast.

On the matters of using people it wasn't just the corrupt nobles he stomped on, remember how Delita also wanted the war to drag on so that the forces of Larg and Goltanna will end up killing each other. Those people were innocent even if those were a bunch of stupid fools and sheep.

I'll semi-reach an agreement with you since you too can acknowledge Delita as gray unlike mega idiot who thinks the idea of him using Ovelia is so absurd.
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Katawa Shoujo: The visual novel that defies and kicks logic to the curb.
Official contender to fight for Lilly as waifu.
#16BetaSquadronPosted 1/5/2013 2:31:14 PM
Efrate posted...
It was a golden age because of what he did.

People give Delita undue credit. All of his political opponents were killed by others. His major political opponents in my view were Dycedarg and Funebris. Dycedarg because Eagrose was the seat of power for the Order of the Northern Sky, and Funebris because I imagine most of the people in Ivalice are part of the church and have some reverence toward it so it has a lot of political sway. Both of these people were not killed by Delita, and their deaths were not orchestrated by Delita.

Dycedarg was killed by Ramza, and because Zalbaag also died, the Northern Sky is essentially defeated because their leadership is nonexistent. Funebris was killed by Loffrey. This is very fortunate for Delita because the church is weakened so they can't challenge Zeltennia or the Southern Sky. But because Delita had nothing to do with it, the people cannot direct their anger toward him. Again, this is nothing of his doing, it's just a fortunate circumstance for him.

The leaders of the other regions in Ivalice also happened to be killed during the game. Delacroix and Elmdore by Ramza, and Barrington by Elmdore. They're minor players though imo because the Northern Sky are commanded from Eagrose and the Southern Sky are commanded from Zeltennia. But even in these regions, Delita had no hand in crushing their leadership or in crushing his opposition.

Delita's activities were confined to Zeltennia. He killed Goltana and took control. That's significant, but it's not any more cunning than what Dycedarg did in Eagrose when he killed Larg. I don't think Delita is any more of a political mastermind than someone like Dycedarg. He was simply fortunate enough to not be killed by Ramza, so he was the only major political leader to be left alive at the end of the game. He used that opportunity to consolidate his control unopposed.

Umbra_Chai posted...
Here's his evil actions, I'd say:

Delita demonstrated that he was evil when he become a monarch. That shows his true intentions. He's as self-interested as any of the other nobles. Delita's not gray, he's evil. Unless you want to claim Dycedarg and any of the other nobles were also gray, I don't think he was any less evil than them.
#17Umbra_ChaiPosted 1/5/2013 3:44:27 PM
terran3999999 posted...
... It's conspiracy to murder for not stopping someone from doing something that'll get them killed? What?
No, and your twisting my word. It's conspiracy because Delita knew what would have happened yet he didn't lift a single finger to help Ramza and most importantly he wanted Ramza off the stage.


You mean besides orchestrating it so he could get Cid on his side? He did quite a few things to help Ramza indirectly. Yes, he didn't start marching soldiers off to kill the Lucavi, but then, he may not have even known about them.

By that same logic, Delita was conspiring to kill him since the end of Chapter 1! Leaving him alone and stranded in the middle of a frozen wasteland, clearly intent to murder.
Uh what? If Ramza was able to climb up that frozen battlefield he can easily climb down it and I don't think the game said Ramza was injured in the blast.


My point, though extreme, was that it's hardly a conspiracy to let others do whatever their planing to do. Hell, they could have gone to have a teaparty for al it mattered to Delita. (Also, the game didn't say it, but he was injured, though not heavily so, by the explosion)

On the matters of using people it wasn't just the corrupt nobles he stomped on, remember how Delita also wanted the war to drag on so that the forces of Larg and Goltanna will end up killing each other. Those people were innocent even if those were a bunch of stupid fools and sheep.


I don't quite give him this, either. From what I could tell, his concern had nothing to do with the forces of Larg and Goltanna, nor did he care whether or not the war went on. (I also don't see how it would have affected his plan one way or the other, which is why I'm hesitant to give him this. Since his plan had to do with the leadership, I don't see how the force mattered too much).

At most, he was apathetic to the war's casualties, which, while dickish, isn't outright evil.


I'll semi-reach an agreement with you since you too can acknowledge Delita as gray unlike mega idiot who thinks the idea of him using Ovelia is so absurd.


I'll agree with this, but I do want to add that Ovelia pretty much only existed to be used. Considering the environment of Ivalice, she would have made a outright horrible sole ruler.


Umbra_Chai posted...
Here's his evil actions, I'd say:

Delita demonstrated that he was evil when he become a monarch. That shows his true intentions. He's as self-interested as any of the other nobles. Delita's not gray, he's evil. Unless you want to claim Dycedarg and any of the other nobles were also gray, I don't think he was any less evil than them.


... We knew he wanted to do that from the beginning. You're either saying that Delita's evil because he wanted power (Which is asinine), or he's evil because he got it (Which is just as asinine).

Just because he got power doesn't make him evil. It's what he did with it (And how he got there, I guess) that's the question. And that's why he's grey. He did some outright evil and manipulative stuff to get there, but he did create a good era and society afterwards (In other words, HE DID WHAT HE WAS GOING FOR IN THE BEGINNING).
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If I reference a man named Furby, I'm talking about myself.