Wasn't this supposed to be an improvement on Tactics Ogre?

#51RaijiniliPosted 4/20/2013 8:28:53 PM
The thing is, you can actually blah blah blah

Like I said, I didn't agree with it. I simply objected on the basis of your insulting interpretation of rumbalumba's post.

While I understand why u're saying this (chess logic), I have to disagree (Shogi logic).

No, I'm saying that there is more information that the player needs to take into account. Decision logic. It's more complicated (though not necessarily adding complexity, but that depends on the exact restrictions).
#52Krio Lv3Posted 4/20/2013 8:45:16 PM
RevenantThings posted...
They absolutely are - in the PSP version. I think Archers are single-handedly the most destructive class in the TO remake.


Not right now for me, I'm doing a Let's Play and there's a stage where you get no new Bows for a bit, Composite Bow +1 isn't all that good late ch3 - ch4, and my Ninja isn't all so awesome, My Rogue is carrying me right now kinda, but I have certain rules in my play, I can't use uniques and I can't use more than one of each class unless im trying to eventually change their class.

FFT is soloable with any class if you know your ****, TO isn't.
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Taylor Lautner - Giving me strength since the New Moon
#53MetastasePosted 4/21/2013 3:06:51 AM
Raijinili,

While it's a good thing you're optimistic about rumbalumba's opinion on both games, it's not good to endorse "delusional" statements. Delusional as in "not connected to reality". I'm sure his impression is legit, but when u look at the meat of his argument, u find out that...

"in TO, your class levels up. Meaning, if I have a lv. 30 Ninja, then any character I hire and I change his job to a Ninja he'll automatically be a lv. 30, but the JP used to unlock skills aren't available. So he's a lv 30 Ninja with the stats but no skills. That is much better than having to grind every character(...)

Well, this isn't quite right. Since every class except "bonus" ones (Mimes, Onions, etc) are available in random battles (plus early story ones) - containing enemies that scale LVLs with u - and can be recruited permanently in ur party, what is holding his argument if not the illusion that this mechanic doesn't exist in FFT? Both mechanics differ in execution, but their purpose and even functionality is exactly the same (LVL scaling does exactly what he's complaining about: auto-grind the new character to ur LVL - plus the new character even comes with some skills already learned, sometimes really costly ones too as a bonus).

Or is there another obvious interpretation of this argument that do not imply this mechanic doesn't exist in FFT? Because it seems to me and probably everyone else besides u, it's implying just that.

I do get why this "illusion" happens. It is under ur nose in TO, but not every player will consider simply recruiting new characters they want and crystalize/substitute previous units because some grinding effort went into them. This makes him think he NEEDs to grind when in reality it's the players choice.

There is enough info posted previously about his 2nd argument.

"No, I'm saying that there is more information that the player needs to take into account."

I wonder. The limitation certainly have this potential but how does it stand against more complex configurations (thus unpredictability) you can be put against? TO certainly isn't a good example of linear and challenging class design while FFT occasionally shows this unpredictable challenge that breaks the stale repetition cycle. Both toys can be easily broken, though.

"FFT is soloable with any class if you know your ****, TO isn't."

The "soloable" comparison doesn't make any sense when both products set themselves apart in this regard: one is set to use lots of units, the opposite of the other (so to say, it's a valid concern in FFT, not in TO). It is obviously a given that 1 unit in FFT > 1 unit in TO. Therefore, this is just a bad comparison that says nothing about the qualities (or lack thereof) of any of the 2 games.

This actually sounds like a troll attempt implying that TO is harder, and it's sad.
#54RaijiniliPosted 4/21/2013 5:32:28 AM(edited)
While it's a good thing you're optimistic about rumbalumba's opinion on both games, it's not good to endorse "delusional" statements. Delusional as in "not connected to reality". I'm sure his impression is legit, but when u look at the meat of his argument, u find out that...

Are you dense? I'm not "optimistic" about his opinion. I simply read it and comprehended it. You can't argue against a statement you don't understand, and you didn't understand the post you were responding to. You delude yourself into seeing a twisted and weak version of what he actually said, which is why you find it "delusional".

Despite my disagreeing with his stance, I find rumbalumba's post intellectually honest, unlike your own.

Or is there another obvious interpretation of this argument that do not imply this mechanic doesn't exist in FFT? Because it seems to me and probably everyone else besides u, it's implying just that.

The obvious interpretation of his words is, "In FFT, each unit has its own progression per job, instead of the progression being based solely on the party."

I don't know where you got your interpretation of, "You can't get a Ninja with skills whenever you want wah wah wah." Your counterargument doesn't work anyway:
- Enemy units have only two variables to determine their starting JP (job and level of that job), so you'll not find, say, a unit with Ninja 4 and Samurai 4.
- The JP of the other jobs are based on how much it takes to unlock that single job. So you won't get higher than level 4 Black Mage unless that unit specifically unlocks Black Mage.
- Enemy unit job levels are FIXED per unit per map. A level 20 Ninja in Yuguo and a level 99 Ninja in Yuguo will have the same starting job levels.
- All the skills of generated units are randomly chosen, so you won't necessarily get the skills you want.
- Crystal-learning takes time, and requires the consumer to unlock classes, and isn't reliable (due to per-skill random).
- Crystal-learned skills don't unlock jobs.
- Special jobs can't be recruited as Ninjas.
- And most enemy Ninjas will have spent their JP on the extensive list of cheap Ninja skills, so you will probably end up having to grind for Reflexes and Dual Wield (or analogous skills for other classes) anyway.

All of this means you have to grind for skills. And it seems you don't really understand the rules of unit generation anyway.

I wonder. The limitation certainly have this potential but how does it stand against more complex configurations (thus unpredictability) you can be put against? TO certainly isn't a good example of linear and challenging class design while FFT occasionally shows this unpredictable challenge that breaks the stale repetition cycle. Both toys can be easily broken, though.

More options + random generation? Ha. I'm not afraid of Equip Sword Knight, Attack Up Summoner, or Magic Attack Up Lancer. Sure, occasionally an Equip Axe Battle Skill Calculator will conquer an army, but that's not normal.

Restricting bad options also means better generation. Again, it's really about the exact restrictions.
#55Storm_WHMPosted 4/21/2013 3:27:36 PM(edited)
It doesn`t really matter if you have a high level class in TO, you still got to grind all that JP and Rank UP your abilities for each character. It`s just as tedious as unlocking all your abilities and classes in FFT.

(Plus you have the annoyance of having to collect special class marks in TO, to change your classes. While in FFT you can change freely from one class to the next, after you have unlocked it.)

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Raijinili, when you recruit a Ninja in FFT, the Ninja class is unlocked right? If someone hired a character in TO and changed them to a Ninja, they wouldn't have any abilities. I think Metastase is suggesting, that these two options can be considered similar. As rumbalumba said that you would have to grind to unlock the class, but an alternative would be to just recruit it into your party.

(In the end they would both still have to grind to unlock abilities or rank up skills.)

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Life is hard, deal with it. Life was never meant to be easy.
#56RaijiniliPosted 4/21/2013 6:10:30 PM
Well, that accidentally prove that I'm not a TO fanboy.

Then that invalidates three of the points. What's left:
- Enemy units have only two variables to determine their starting JP (job and level of that job), so you'll not find, say, a unit with Ninja 4 and Samurai 4.
- The JP of the other jobs are based on how much it takes to unlock that single job. So you won't get higher than level 4 Black Mage unless that unit specifically unlocks Black Mage. Unless the unit has Mime as their unlock, you'll have units that are empty on one branch of the tree.
- Enemy unit job levels are FIXED per unit per map. A level 20 Ninja in Yuguo and a level 99 Ninja in Yuguo will have the same starting job levels.
- Crystal-learned skills don't unlock jobs.
- Special jobs can't be recruited as Ninjas.
#57MetastasePosted 4/21/2013 8:26:35 PM
I know you were not being optimistic, Raijinili. That was just random humor on my part because the arguments don't hold up. Although you did point a small qualitative difference that might actually give some ground to the argument but alas, that was not how he based his argumentation so it's more like an afterthought added by you than his own.

I was going to point exactly that right now: classes cards in TO, but Storm_WHM just did. I omitted this info previously because the post was huge already and this is only a variation of the central job mechanic, whose purpose is the same. In reality, you grind for jobs in both games, in FFT you grind once and can change freely, in TO you grind less but may need to stop what you're doing to grab that one card you want. This collaborates with the "stick to one class" concept more prominent in TO, but my point is that you don't actually have to do this in FFT for the majority of classes besides Orator (Mediator).

I must say right now that I don't think that limiting experimentation (specially in strategy games) is a good design. It may work, but the card mechanic is just an artificial accessibility limitation put on the player that invalidates changing strategies between missions until very late into the game.

FFT choice of unlocking classes through grinding may not be the greatest but nonetheless this effectively allows you to unlock the class you want at any given point in the game. Thus, for practical purposes, there are more valid classes available through the majority of the game in FFT than in TO. Also, whether one likes it or not, the grinding IS one of the addicting aspects of the game that keeps the player coming back for more.

"The JP of the other jobs are based on how much it takes to unlock that single job. So you won't get higher than level 4 Black Mage unless that unit specifically unlocks Black Mage."

"Enemy unit job levels are FIXED per unit per map"

Job Lvls in FFT are less relevant than in TO. They only matter for unlocking other classes (Speechcraft being the alternative to eliminate grind) and JP earned to learn remaining skills (Crystalization mechanic being the alternative to grind). Some magicks can be learned by being hit.

There is no alternative to job unlocking in TO. This is not a flaw in itself -it was designed to be this way - but it's just not rocking man. I think we can all safely agree that 1 grind = free switch > infinite small grinds = switch, both being strategy games and all. Both are annoying and provide artificial challenge control of sorts but TO remains annoying forever at that.

"I find rumbalumba's post intellectually honest, unlike your own"

You just don't like my tone. The contents of my arguments are fine.

"More options + random generation? Ha. I'm not afraid of Equip Sword Knight(...)"

You're correct. Which is why my emphasis was: when both toys can be easily broken anyway, at least FFT can surprise u once in a while to keep u on ur toes.

Super battles complement the random generation nicely for added challenge. Suddenly, the unaware Shirahadori (Blade Grasp) abuser meets a map full of Monks and goes WTF; the power equipment user meets Hydras and Tiamats without elemental absorbing/protection; map full of Ninjas that dual wield through Shirahadori and are faster than anything without auto-haste, Choco Meteors, etc...

All in all, those factors make FFT entertaining for a longer period than TO. Even Cidolfus can be screwed sometimes, the same really can't be said about Canopus. At least T.G. Cid comes in late in FFT too.
#58Storm_WHMPosted 4/21/2013 10:46:47 PM(edited)
Krio Lv3 posted...
RevenantThings posted...
They absolutely are - in the PSP version. I think Archers are single-handedly the most destructive class in the TO remake.


Not right now for me, I'm doing a Let's Play and there's a stage where you get no new Bows for a bit, Composite Bow +1 isn't all that good late ch3 - ch4, and my Ninja isn't all so awesome, My Rogue is carrying me right now kinda, but I have certain rules in my play, I can't use uniques and I can't use more than one of each class unless im trying to eventually change their class.

FFT is soloable with any class if you know your ****, TO isn't.

I actually just used a full team of Archers and with just two Clerics on the side. The bows themselves don't actually have to be that powerful, it's just their range and the abundance of units you have, which makes you quickly overtake your enemy. (Not so good having low terrain, but still pretty easy.)

Just using these two classes the whole game left all my other classes at a relatively low level. I unlocked all my unique characters and switch them all to the other classes so I could gain permanent stat growth by leveling through a bunch of class levels.

(You ca rewind Act 4, and snipe Uram over and over, so easy to gain those levels and JP. I know it's kind of cheap, but you can't beat the results.) :P
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Life is hard, deal with it. Life was never meant to be easy.
#59RaijiniliPosted 4/22/2013 12:26:12 AM
You just don't like my tone. The contents of my arguments are fine.

Correction: I also don't like your tone. Your arrogance when evaluating mechanics is far higher than your actual understanding of game complexity analysis. (And your use of technical vocabulary like "linear" is completely wrong. Please stop abusing words you don't understand.)

The contents of your arguments are based off a poor reading of the post. It's like a bounty hunter bringing back a rabbit instead of Han Solo.

This collaborates with the "stick to one class" concept more prominent in TO, but my point is that you don't actually have to do this in FFT for the majority of classes besides Orator (Mediator).

If you want to do it that way, you need to wait until you get a chapter where you find enemies of that class. And then you have to keep getting into random battles until you find the unit you want.

Speaking of saving time, get some Summoner crystals and fill half of the skill tree in a couple battles. You can even sacrifice units you don't really want to transfer skills.

Again:
- You need to unlock the classes before you can crystal-learn the skills.
- Each skill has a chance of learning, and better skills are less likely.
- So you're grinding for crystals instead of skills. Great, now you're subject to the RNG not giving you Summoners with the skills you want. Not to mention, the more powerful the skill, the less likely an enemy will have it, and then you have to roll AGAIN to eat that skill. (Summon can be Blue Magic'd more easily than others, fortunately).

Pretty sure it's more efficient to grind up to Summoner than to recruit an enemy Summoner and hope it eats your crystals well. Resetting until you find a Samurai, and spamming "Invite" until you get it, is also a grind. So your "option" is actually worse.

I must say right now that I don't think that limiting experimentation (specially in strategy games) is a good design.

Again: It depends on the exact restrictions. But limiting options in strategy games is in general healthier for a video game, because you can control the progress of the player, and thus balance the battles better. (Not that this means TO did it right.)

Vocabulary: In game design, "limiting experimentation" doesn't mean limiting options. It means punishing the use of options. Making it cost something to try something, and then being unable to take it back. For example, it costs JP to buy Equip Crossbow, and you don't get that JP back when you realize Concentrate would've been better. It's a minor case, though. Missables in general, like Escutcheon2, hinder experimentation. Level up bonuses based on class hinder experimentation.

You're correct. Which is why my emphasis was: when both toys can be easily broken anyway, at least FFT can surprise u once in a while to keep u on ur toes.

Nothing you said makes me think that TO can't. It might make YOU think that TO can't, but you haven't discussed how the exact restrictions make it less surprising. You simply say, "Well, in TO enemies can't do everything, therefore they can't do anything super special."
#60Storm_WHMPosted 4/22/2013 5:26:57 AM(edited)
If you want to do it that way, you need to wait until you get a chapter where you find enemies of that class. And then you have to keep getting into random battles until you find the unit you want.

You also have to wait until certain chapters to unlock class marks in TO. The Ninja class mark will be available in chapter 3, so you have to wait for this as well. But then you have to collect the marks, which is the annoying part. (This is a randomized drop from that particular enemy, so if you miss it you have to find another battle.)

If you can find Deneb's Shop in chapter 4 you can buy them. The game limits your money, so you can't stock pile them very easily, as they're quite expensive. But it's an annoying to find the shop itself, you pretty much need a guide to tell you were it is.

Vocabulary: In game design, "limiting experimentation" doesn't mean limiting options. It means punishing the use of options. Making it cost something to try something, and then being unable to take it back. For example, it costs JP to buy Equip Crossbow, and you don't get that JP back when you realize Concentrate would've been better. It's a minor case, though. Missables in general, like Escutcheon2, hinder experimentation. Level up bonuses based on class hinder experimentation.

The cost in TO, just seems too high. Only the starting generic classes can be easily obtained, but everything else is an annoyance to obtain. This does limit your experimentation to some degree, but it's through the amount of time required to obtain the marks. This is before you even get the chance to play with the class itself.

(How much of a hassle does a option have to hold, to start becoming a limitation?)
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Life is hard, deal with it. Life was never meant to be easy.