Delita

#1lindaluvPosted 4/26/2013 11:43:09 AM
Do people actually like this monkey butt fruit cake?
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#2terran3999999Posted 4/26/2013 12:00:50 PM
.....

I kinda do. Yes, the things he did was horrible and heinous but he did end the war and brought an eternal peace for Ivalice.
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#3styrrrPosted 4/26/2013 2:25:01 PM(edited)
WALL O' TEXT [My thoughts on Delita]

When I was younger I really didn't like Delita, but as I've grown up I've started to appreciate his cunning and aptitude. He manipulated his way up the ranks of nobility to become King of Ivalice by being clever, daring, and wooing Ovelia.

Sure, he was ultimately alone by killing everyone after using them, that's the point of a Byronic hero; they are very flawed individuals that have a goal and will get it done.. or die trying.

Lindaluv, if you posted this thread because of my comment about Ramza/Delita and Barbaneth/Cid, I wasn't directly comparing the two in personality or anything. I merely meant that one was the PC: Ramza in FFT and Barbaneth in a hypothetical FFT sequel, whereas Delita and Cid are the guest character who you rarely if ever control. Ramza said Barbaneth said Cid was the only man he ever trusted - this level of camaraderie speaks of deep friendship, imo.

You could also say the same for Ramza and Delita, as they are childhood friends. As I see it, Ramza and Delita are opposite sides of the same coin: Ramza is the archetypal hero and Delita is the anti-hero. I don't think Cid is an anti-hero at all but I don't think a hypothetical FFT sequel would give you both Barbaneth/Cid to control.

Like FFT, it would have one as a guest while the other is controllable. I could see Cid being given his own side missions similar to the ~2-3 fights in WotL where you actually control Delita in Chapter 2-4. This would make Barbaneth the pre/sequel version of Ramza and Cid the prequel version of Delita.

Cid and Barbaneth aren't given much characterization in FFT and Square could make a lot of money if they did a proper FFT 'prequel' exploring the Ivalice-Ordallia War. Sure, it wouldn't have the Lucavi or anything supernatural, but a war setting writes itself; I mean, the Fifty Years' War in Ivalice is basically a rip-off of the actual Hundred Years' War!

If Square utilized branching plots for a FFT sequel it would be AWESOME. Barbaneth could be similar to Ramza (youngest sibling), but instead of joining the knights after graduation one of the choices for him would be to work as a spy and assassin for several years. It would certainly flesh out his character if some "major event" years later made him disgusted with his cloak & dagger job. If they incorporated that "major event" with him meeting Cid sometime during his 'last mission as a spy/assassin/whatever', it would really make the 'only man he ever trusted' actually true with canon game events backing it up. Afterwards he would become a 'proper' knight.

But I digress.. big time.

Delita is like a villain that won. His methods were vile - at times - and almost always dirty, but he truly had the betterment of Ivalice in mind. He used Ramza to dispose of the loose ends which he could not openly move against; Ramza being a heretic was *perfect* for disposing of Church members like Zalmour, Folmarv, etc. It makes perfect sense that when Delita betrayed the Church, he would have to clean it up somehow. I wonder if Delita knew the real reason why Ramza was labeled a heretic, though. Frankly, I doubt Delita knew of the Lucavi; it was a closely guarded secret and he was less of a fighter and more Machiavellian. He used other people to fight.. particularly Ramza or the Nanten.

Delita is a jerk, verbose, manipulative, and very smart. But he did bring peace to the country and forged his legend: about a commoner who became king by marrying the Princess.

That act alone probably inspired many peasants to work hard for the betterment of the country, boosting their ambition and morale. It showed them that revolting and taking up arms against the Crown was not the only choice - if a commoner could become king, a peasant could do anything! At least, I'm sure that's what Delita wanted the people of Ivalice to think...

Sorry bout this wall o' text. Was bored ;)
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#4lindaluv(Topic Creator)Posted 4/26/2013 3:19:21 PM
While I would like to agree, and no this has nothing to do with what you mentioned earlier lol, sorry if it seemed like it, Delita never had the intention of what you said, he merely wanted to wipe out the whole Nobility aspect of society and gain power to get revenge for his sister.

It started out as revenge, and grew more from that, a typical anti butt face who starts with noble convictions but gets eaten up by the vileness of his methods, essentially making him no different then the very people he sought to replace. He didnt need to use and abuse, kill and swindle a vast majority of the people that he disposed of afterwards, heck he even killed the one man who knew the truth simply because he wanted to go down in the legends and did not want the truth out there.

He wasn't the one who brought peace, it was Ramza, Alma and Cid.. he merely took that glory as his own and anyone who tried to prevent that was.. well you know the rest.

Its funny cuz when I first played Tactics, I was young and so when I saw what happened to Delibeans and his sister I actually liked him and Ramza for being true friends. However, as I played it again when I got older and my brain could decipher and make sense of things and Delibeans true intentions made sense.. I realize how much of horse butt he really was.

What I wanna know is tho.. did he die from that stab from poor Oeliva
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#5Equinox_OscurasPosted 4/26/2013 6:09:24 PM
lindaluv posted...
While I would like to agree, and no this has nothing to do with what you mentioned earlier lol, sorry if it seemed like it, Delita never had the intention of what you said, he merely wanted to wipe out the whole Nobility aspect of society and gain power to get revenge for his sister.

It started out as revenge, and grew more from that, a typical anti butt face who starts with noble convictions but gets eaten up by the vileness of his methods, essentially making him no different then the very people he sought to replace. He didnt need to use and abuse, kill and swindle a vast majority of the people that he disposed of afterwards, heck he even killed the one man who knew the truth simply because he wanted to go down in the legends and did not want the truth out there.

He wasn't the one who brought peace, it was Ramza, Alma and Cid.. he merely took that glory as his own and anyone who tried to prevent that was.. well you know the rest.

Its funny cuz when I first played Tactics, I was young and so when I saw what happened to Delibeans and his sister I actually liked him and Ramza for being true friends. However, as I played it again when I got older and my brain could decipher and make sense of things and Delibeans true intentions made sense.. I realize how much of horse butt he really was.

What I wanna know is tho.. did he die from that stab from poor Oeliva


You, my friend, just perfectly summed up how I feel about Delita. A man with a thirst for vengence and an honorable goal who bbecomes what he hated most. Orran Durai was going to show the man hidden behind the curtain and got burned at the stake for it; if all he had wanted was to wipe out nobility, what moved his hand here. -sigh- Frickin' Delita. Although I'm not sure if he DID die, but (in my mind) I believe that a wild Chocobo happened to be walking by and Delita proceeded to be Choco Meteor-ed.
Also.... Delibeans. Nice.
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#6styrrrPosted 4/26/2013 7:53:59 PM
I totally agree with you, Equinox; I think when Orran tried to publish the Durai Papers, Delita caught wind of it - he was a Holy Knight and had Church connections after all - and knew they would tarnish his image. So he buried the papers in some monastery vault somewhere and killed Orran.

I think this is what really set off Ovelia in the epilogue. I know in the original FFT epilogie she says Ramza's name, but in WotL Ovelia's last words are much more ambiguous and open to interpretation. I think by the time of the epilogue, ~5 years had passed and Orran had just been killed. In my opinion this is the straw the broke the camel's back, so to speak. Ovelia had barely known Ramza for any length of time, whereas Orran was around her constantly. His death would be profoundly more shocking to her than Ramza's, I believe.

However Agrias *did* mention she was traveling with Ramza in the "Reunion at Zeltennia" scene, now that I think about it; and it is ironic that Delita told Agrias that Ovelia would come to no harm.. with Agrias swearing vengeance if he broke that promise.

As for whether he died, I doubt it. IIRC, he had a "long and prosperous reign" or some such. I don't like Delita as a person at all, although he did have moments of kindness, but that's all they were - moments. Like sparing Valmafra, and Cid. He could've offed them easily but gave them a 2nd chance. It was only when someone threatened to tarnish his image, like Orran did with the Durai Papers, that his vengeance struck like a hammer.

I agree with what you both wrote; Delita had noble intentions at first, to displace the nobility and usurp their control over Ivalice; but in the end he became what he hated. I concur with you, linda. It wasn't Delita that brought peace, but Ramza... but nobody knew about that. To everyone except the 15ish people that knew about Ramza, Delita was the hero king who rescued Ivalice blah blah; Delita made sure that's what everyone thought of him, and he did nothing to clear Ramza's name or heretic status.

It's really messed up when you think about it, that Delita would take credit for everything Ramza did... but by that point, he'd already been so engrossed into his plotting and planning he couldn't turn back then.

When Ramza asks Delita to "let us fight this together" that was, imo, his final chance to redeem himself. Did he know about the Lucavi then? Most likely not, but if he did.. that just proves how absorbed he was with his own ambition and wooing Ovelia to secure his future position as king. He couldn't leave Ovelia because what if someone else came along and treated her with actual kindness, like Ramza had done in Chapter 2? He couldn't chance it. Delita was, ultimately, very VERY possessive of Ovelia. She was critical to his plan, I believe, until they were married... then she was disposable... like Orran was.

Whether or not he knew of the Lucavi and the very serious threat they posed on Ivalice, when he rejected Ramza's offer in that Zeltennia Church, he sealed his descent into darkness in my mind. Delita is shining example of a Byronic hero: a charismatic character with strong passions and convictions, willing to do anything and everything to accomplish their goals. Even if that 'anything and everything' is socially and morally wrong - like killing your wife - in Delita's mind, it was either *him* or *her*.

Of course, we are trying to impose 21st century standards on a character set in a fictional version of the 15th century. Delita forged his legend and was famous, despite being borderline evil. Ramza, the hero, was forgotten for hundreds of years in spite of everything he had done for Ivalice.

I like to think he retired with Alma and Agrias to some foreign country and settled down and had blond babes with Agrias, but that's just the shipper in me ;)

As for Delibeans... for some reason it reminds me of Delibird from pokemon and makes me laugh.. lol.
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#7terran3999999Posted 4/26/2013 8:03:42 PM
I'm going to be playing the role of the devil's advocate. If you can't take it, complain somewhere else.

Delita never had the intention of what you said, he merely wanted to wipe out the whole Nobility aspect of society and gain power to get revenge for his sister.
Whether he had the intention or not, his actions had a somewhat positive outcome. An example would be an antihero or vigilant who does whatever it takes to bring down the greater evil.
A popular example would be Venom(Eddy Brock version) from Marvel, he fights against evil but unlike Spider Man he has no qualms about getting people hurt or even killing the villain when murder is usually wrong.

Matsuno probably intended to make Delita a really gray character so discussions like this would happen.

He wasn't the one who brought peace, it was Ramza, Alma and Cid.. he merely took that glory as his own and anyone who tried to prevent that was.. well you know the rest.
False. Yes Ramza stopped the Lucavi but can you honestly say the war dragging on wasn't destroying Ivalice in its own way?

What I wanna know is tho.. did he die from that stab from poor Oeliva
Nope, he lived on so he could usher in that "golden era of peace".

Orran Durai was going to show the man hidden behind the curtain and got burned at the stake for it; if all he had wanted was to wipe out nobility, what moved his hand here.
You need to look at it from a different perspective. What do you think would have happened if Orran exposed Delita? He would just step down and pick a successor? No. The cycle would have just ended up repeating itself, the nobles once again would via for power. It would be Pro-Delita against the Con-Delita.
For all we know, Alazam's revelation could have caused a massive power struggle too or just maybe the people of modern Ivalice is more civilized.
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#8terran3999999Posted 4/26/2013 8:10:50 PM
Whether or not he knew of the Lucavi
I would have to say no, I doubt Folmarv and the others would have shared such a dark secret with Delita. Hell, Folmarv didn't even share it with his own flesh and blood!

Agrias to some foreign country and settled down and had blond babes with Agrias
Dude, we all she only had eyes for Ovelia.

Also, wincest.
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Katawa Shoujo: The visual novel that defies and kicks logic to the curb.
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#9styrrrPosted 4/26/2013 9:00:02 PM(edited)
terran3999999 posted...
I'm going to be playing the role of the devil's advocate. If you can't take it, complain somewhere else.
He wasn't the one who brought peace, it was Ramza, Alma and Cid.. he merely took that glory as his own and anyone who tried to prevent that was.. well you know the rest.
False. Yes Ramza stopped the Lucavi but can you honestly say the war dragging on wasn't destroying Ivalice in its own way?


I agree with most of your points except this one. The Lucavi, led by Folmarv, basically engineered the entire war by manipulating events. Delita worked directly under Folmarv for quite some time and afterwards the Church helped him rise through the Southern Sky ranks so he could manipulate Goltana better. Although one could argue that Dycedarg was extremely ambitious - even without the Stones - would he have started the war by himself? It's hard to say.

Without the Church - and Delita - pressuring Goltana to start the war, it might never have happened. Or it may have just remained a cloaked battleground full of spies and assassins instead of armies and massive battles. Saint Ajora needing lots of blood was a major driving factor in the war being caused imo, with the side effect of weakening the people's faith in the Crown. This secondary effect is what the High Priest Marcel sought and was oblivious to the true plot guiding the War of the Lions.

Almost nobody believed in the existence of Lucavi; only those who traveled with Ramza and saw their effects first hand: In Chapter 2 it was only Ramza, Agrias, Mustadio, Alicia/Lavian if they are still alive, and perhaps some generics. Later on he gets more recruits, but that initial ragtag team saw the first Lucavi in Lionel and probably had a jaw-dropping moment when he transformed.

Consider Meliadoul when Ramza told her about the Lucavi at Riovanes: disbelief, mockery, contempt at his "lie". And she was a Templar! At Orbonne, Isilud, although not yet a Templar thought of the Stones as divine miracles from the Gods. He scoffed at Ramza implying that they were demonic, calling Ramza the demon instead. The average peasant or soldier likely didn't even think of the stones real, I'd imagine.

In the end however, Ramza was simply too noble to confront Delita about what he had done, instead leaving him to his devices. I think Ramza could have easily killed Delita if he had a mind to do so, but I think Delita knew Ramza wouldn't attack him unless Delita attacked him first.

@Terran regarding Delita not knowing about Lucavi from Folmarv - Touche. He could have learned some other way... and I think no matter what, Delita learned about it after the fact from the Durai Papers. I could see him being slightly obsessed with Ramza after Ovelia dies and wondering what exactly his old friend had been doing during the War of the Lions, and why he had been labeled a heretic and such.

Delita strikes me as the sort of person to read the Durai Papers and then, his curiosity about Ramza sated, buries it in some monastery vault before having Orran killed.
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#10terran3999999Posted 4/26/2013 10:31:24 PM
The Lucavi, led by Folmarv, basically engineered the entire war by manipulating events.
Yes and no. There is no doubt they acted as the catalyst and incited the war to break lose faster.

But please remember, even before the game started, there was already a massive power struggle on "who" is the rightful ruler to the throne. "Prince" Orinus was backed up by the White Lion, Larg, who also had a lot of support from the other nobles. "Princess" Ovelia was backed up by the Black Lion, Goltanna, who had a majority support of the commoners.(propaganda to "defend" the noble blood can go a lot way to incite "petty" commoners to fight very hard)

And I firmly believe there was no way in hell there could have been peace talks between the two.

In the end however, Ramza was simply too noble to confront Delita about what he had done
I think it has more to do with being too "Chaotic Good", a major flaw(yes he has some) with Ramza is he feels major guilt and responsibility in Tietra's death when it really wasn't his fault. But should something had happened to Alma by the hands of Delita he could lose it....

Delita learned about it after the fact from the Durai Papers.
This is a very wrong misconception. Arazlam did find out a lot about what really happened during the war but there is no way he could have found out about everything that happened, the game clearly breaks out of the fourth wall to tell you the whole truth. There's no way Arazlam could have known what happened in the Necrohol.

Much like how some people still misbelieve the idea that Ajora had divine powers when s/he was just a manipulative weasel who sold his/her soul to Ultima.
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Official contender to fight for Lilly as waifu.