Delita

#51MetastasePosted 5/22/2013 4:35:47 AM
Delita didn't start the war. He brought an end to it. Otherwise, even in the event of Ramza dispatching the Lucavi threat, counts, nobles and the church would keep the infinite war for power (and the crown).

Let's remember what actually happened in real life by the time the Knights Templar went down (before the Hundred Years' War):

1-) Count Hugh de Champagne donated his estates to Bernard of Clairvaux (Saint Bernard), who felt obligated to support his benefactor and petitioned Pope Hornorius II to officially sanction the Knights Templar, becoming the first order in the world to obtain the Omne Datum Optimum and essentially being above the law, tax free and endorsed by the catholic church.

2-)Tension got higher between the 2 major powers of europe leading to the conflict with the church: to tax the clergy.

2-) Templars created what was the base for our modern banking system, becoming stupidly rich and powerful.

3-) King King Philip IV borrowed huge amounts of money from the Knights Templar, who were endorsed by the catholic church.

4-) Internal war breaks down between King Philip IV from France and Pope Boniface VIII because of clergy taxation, church loses, Boniface dies/is killed and is replaced by conciliatory Pope Benedict XI. He struggles just to maintain his power, loses everything Boniface sustained, releases King Philip from excommunication and Unam sanctam imposed to Philip and while trying to fight back a little bit (by excommunicating Guillaume de Nogaret, the King's Grand Inquisitor and responsible for Boniface's fall), he was poisoned and died.

5-) By influence of King Philip, Clement V is the new Pope. This is the turning point for the church: Clement backed down, released Guillaume de Nogaret from excommunication in exchange for Philip letting go of Boniface trial (church image) and then faced the choice...

6-) King Philip orchestrated a plan to get rid of the Templars, his debt with them while also stealing their treasures. In order to do so, he threatened to create a new church and put pressure on Pope Clement V, who had to decide to continue endorsing the Templars and war against Philip or disband and kill the order. Bad move...he gave in, burned Grand Master Templar Jacques DeMolay - who cursed Philip, Clement and Guillaume when dying - and other Templars at stake and disbanded the order.

7-) When Philip went after their treasure, it was too late, he found nothing. Within 1 year, Philip, Clement and Guillaume were killed.


So basically, if Clement didn't betray the Knights Templar (and their huge money and king debt), the church would win against the king. Also, Boniface himself reminded King Philip that the church had already dethroned 3 French Kings.

If there is one thing to take from this is that the king doesn't hold true power against the church, and vice-versa (If the Pope isn't DUMB, obviously).

I don't think Delita is necessarily pro-church. In the case of Orran, their schedules met. But let's not forget that ultimately, the church is just another greedy power stopping his "Golden Age" from full realization. It just so happens it's kinda impossible to get rid of them or maybe he didn't achieve enough power to create another, "legit" church under his command.

Even with the Pope under his command, King Philip still lost.
#52MarquessLausPosted 5/24/2013 9:15:00 AM
Metastase posted...
Delita didn't start the war.


How exactly did Delita not start the war.

He kidnapped Ovelia. He brought her too Zeltennia. He convinced Goltanna that his own man Baron Grimms was the one that sent him (it wasn't), he framed Goltanna's chancellor that spoke against him for the attempts on Ovelia's life, then Delita murders him, then he instructs Goltanna straight up to have the Southern Sky march on Lesalia and deny Prince Orinus, lest Goltana is blamed for his chancellors actions.

He brought an end to it. Otherwise, even in the event of Ramza dispatching the Lucavi threat, counts, nobles and the church would keep the infinite war for power (and the crown).

Where's the evidence for that? I'm not sure were to told the Northern Sy kept fighting after Larg and the Beoulves were dead, much less that they would infinitely keep going if not for Delita.


So basically, if Clement didn't betray the Knights Templar (and their huge money and king debt), the church would win against the king. Also, Boniface himself reminded King Philip that the church had already dethroned 3 French Kings.


If there is one thing to take from this is that the king doesn't hold true power against the church, and vice-versa (If the Pope isn't DUMB, obviously).


The entire reason the High Confessor started his plotting is because he was lacking in power. We are hardly told his church dethroned 3 kings. Moreover, the High Confessor was dead, his second in command was dead too, the second in command replacement was killed as well and everyone present inside Mullone was massacred too. So chances are yes, who actually led the church after it all may not have been trained court politics sufficiently that him overthrowing Delita at the drop of hat would seem all that feasible.
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When you've got a pretty-boy monkey on your back constantly calling you a puppet, you hardly want to seem like you're happy to be used. - DSakaCharanJ
#53mooreandrew58Posted 5/26/2013 10:00:29 AM
I think rather delita is viewed as a true villian or not depends on one question. do the ends justify the means? he did play a vital role in bringing about a era of peace, but was it worth the cost?

also I don't think delita used ramza at all, not saying he wouldn't have, im saying he didn't need too, ramza was acting on his own will and would have followed that path regardless of delitas role. I think this partially due to how seemingly upset delita got with valmfar (however its spelt) when she said even delita's friends where just pawns in his game. also beforehand in the same scene delita saying ramza acting just as he thought he would, leads me to think like I mentioned that delita would have manipulated him or offed him if need be, but also that he trusted ramza to be the noble type of guy and continue fighting to bring an end to the war

I would like to think despite all his backstabbing delita still truly thought of ramza as a friend, just one that was too noble at heart to get things done the way he could

anyways with the game being left up heavily to interpretation, this is just how I like to view things.
#54cay1021Posted 6/6/2013 2:56:51 PM
styrrr posted...

I like to think he retired with Alma and Agrias to some foreign country and settled down and had blond babes with Agrias


I'd lke to remind everyone that Mustadio had the hots for Agrias. I doubt Ramza had any kids.
#55Bishop_SasaraiPosted 6/6/2013 6:27:14 PM
cay1021 posted...
styrrr posted...

I like to think he retired with Alma and Agrias to some foreign country and settled down and had blond babes with Agrias


I'd lke to remind everyone that Mustadio had the hots for Agrias. I doubt Ramza had any kids.


That whole thing was bizarre.
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Anticipating the following: Tales of Xillia (PS3), FF X/X-2 HD (PS3)
#56EfratePosted 6/6/2013 7:29:12 PM
As far as timeline its FF12 before FFT before VS. VS references the golden age of King Delita, I want to say 50 years.

We know from that that Delita lived post ending, as did Ramza and others (most likely).

As for no one of living people coming back, thank mastermind evil villain Delita. Ovelia killed after finally snapping at her master manipulator. Who else is around. Assassins had targetted her before. It would be childs play for Delita to claim someone else went and killed her. A rival, a person or group to turn the populace against, or just further reducing someone who might have risen a bit too highly. He would play grieving husband, say all the nice things, and so on. Or just a simple accident. Depends what he needed. He manipulated everyone and everything to get what he wanted. It turned out in the end to be a good thing for the people, but he was an evil mastermind (or opportunist) seldom equalled, and he won. Through murder, deceit, and manipulating he got exactly what he wanted. This would be no different.

As for Agrias, she already choose a different path for one when she went with Ramza. Also, depending on how the tale was spun and how long it took to reach her, why would she go to ind out the "truth". Remember, most of the Delita's actions are unknown by Ramza. He would have no reason ( and is dumb enough to believe Delita would not do anything like that ) to doubt Delita, as would most his crew.

In the brave story, I think they mention some where that the timing of Orran being declared a heretic is a bit further down the road than normally anticipated. Cid may have been dead by then from natural causes. Regardless he was rescued to fight on by being "killed", and even if it was a big deal about a heretic, there are many reasons that could be, and who would cid turn a vengeful glare on to fix? Upset the crown and stability which he fought for? Take out the church, inciting a religious war? Assuming he even heard of it. Not in line with what he fought so hard in two wars for.
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That was the greatest post I have ever read on these boards, Effy. I laughed, I cried, I ate a whole gallon of ice cream.
KrossRoads
#57jascla92Posted 6/10/2013 12:05:07 AM
Remember that this is a feudal world without an internet.

Orran would have been long dead before Ramza ever heard about it, if he ever did.
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A fight is not won by one punch or kick. Either learn to endure or hire a bodyguard. Bruce Lee
#58GuergyPosted 6/15/2013 1:12:34 AM
I just don't understand why fans single out Delita as the only complete monster when there are worst villains in the game. Delita is not so much a villain as he is an antagonist and even if he wasn't a traditional RPG hero, he was a tragic hero in every sense of the word. Delita is an anti-something character that cannot be placed in either role yet is both of the those roles at the same time. It just baffles me that most people sinlge out Delita when:

Duke Larg and Goltana were willing to continue the civil war when it quite clear that they cannot continue on especially with the economy being what it is. They were both motivated by greed and a lust for power that they were willing to continue to tax the poor in order to fund the war. Their economy could no longer support them but they continued the war anyway causing the people to revolt.

Dycedarg was also motivated by greed and killed his own father and best friend in order to put Beoulve on top.

Gafgarion is a mercenary who will kill even children if paid to do so.

Folmarv who doesn''t really have a personality other than being an evil knight templar is manipulating all of them to revive Ultima/St. Ajora.

The Lucavi are pretty much evil incarnate as they use the Zodiac Stones to manipulate everyone so that they can destroy the world/

There even worse villains and antagonists than Delita yet fans single out Delita as the 'true evil' in the series. Why single out Delita when there worst villains out there in the game?
#59BobDDstryrPosted 6/20/2013 1:02:21 AM
Two things:

1 - I'm sure that Delita blamed an assassin for Ovelia's death and further used that to consolidate his power. And why wouldn't the people believe him? He's their hero - nobody knows what he really did, or that he and Ovelia weren't actually in love. People believe either what they want to believe, or what they fear to be true..

2 - It's not officially connected, but you guys should look into the game "Crimson Shroud" - its a downloadable title for like $5 on the 3ds, and was created by Matsuno, with music by the composer of the VS and FFT soundtracks. It's different than most RPGs - its kindof like a tabletop game - all of the characters are like board game pieces, and attacks use dice. It's fairly short - although takes two playthroughs to see the best ending. Its like VS, in that you're going through ruins of an ancient temple, and the story also has some similar themes to the other good Ivalice games. I also saw similarities between some of the characters you learn about and Saint Ajora and the Lucavi.