Zodiac Beasts in Tactics and 12 *spoilers*
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2 years ago#1
Note: It has been many years since i've played either games so some questions may seem stupid to ask lol >_>
Since the two games take place in the same world at different timelines, there's some questions i'm curious to find out if there's any answers for:
1) Since 12 takes place before Tactics and the speculation assumes that the beasts are the same, is it safe to assume the beasts in 12 were sealed somewhere between the games and thus are contained inside the stones in Tactics?
2) What exactly were the zodiac beasts doing in 12? Was Adrammalech just chilling in the desert? Was Zalera simply trolling people in the tunnels?
3) Due to the nature of the stories between Ultima and Ajora, it's quite obvious why Ultima would take Ajora as a host, but as related to question 2, was Ultima and the rest of the Lucavi (zodiac beasts) always connected with each other or did she recruit them some time after 12 when, like I said, they appeared to be doing nothing?
4) This question most likely has the most obvious answer, but how does a zodiac beast/lucavi choose their hosts? We've seen people like Elmdor and Wiegraf willingly become one with a beast, but why does other holders of stones not get possessed by them?
The reason I ask this is because while Meliadoul is an iffy subject considering she was a littler on the darker side before joining Ramza, Izlude was blatantly evil yet neither were possessed by their respective stones. Then there's people like Mustadio, a clear cut nice guy, running around with a stone with no repercussions and Marach being REVIVED by a stone (the same stone that possessed Wiegraf no less), it's just confusing how the stones work.
And on the 8th day God said "Let there be fivehead!" and it was good. - wonderbreadman
2 years ago#2
I'm probably late on this but I'll still answer this topic in hopes that you will read it. I'm actually surprised alma didn't jump in here and give out a whole bunch of bogus crap.
Before I answer anything I like to say that, unfortunately, Matsuno has left a lot of the details in the Dark.(extra points if you understand the reference!) Some are explained but some are just theories of mine. I'll state my theory in hopes not to confuse anyone.
1. Correct, sometime before Tactics the Lucavis were sealed into the Stones.
Theory: Some people ask who were the people that was able to seal up the Lucavis? My theory is that it was the True Zodiac Braves, we know for certain that Ajora and his/her company was somehow able to form a pact with the Lucavis and was wreaking havoc on Ivalice. Somebody must have stopped them or there wouldn't have been an Ivalice left, my theory is that it was the TZB. Knowing that the Lucavi can't be killed they used the Stones to seal them inside but the price was probably very steep: maybe forfeiting their lives.
2. After Ultima and the others failed to try to rebel against the Occurrians they were sealed into exact locations as part of their punishment, basically a prison of sort. Ajora and his/her company somehow found a way to break them out of the seals.
Theory: I believe it might actually have to do with forming a pact with them, its actually a lot harder than one might think. You're asked to form a pact with a being that looks quite demonic and its goals is to conquer the world. Most normal people would be horrified at such an idea.
3. Hmm, I never saw the relation to Ultima and Ajora in that particular way until now! But to answer your question yes, all the Lucavi were the same and those same 11 also was part of the rebellion that Ultima led. The only one that wasn't part of it is Zodiark/Zodiac, his powers was so feared that the Occurrians sealed him only as an infant and before he had time to mature. It's truly a mystery what connection he holds with Edilibus, the mage you meet at the bottom of Midlight's Deep.
Theory: One of my less concrete ones, I think Edilibus may have been part of the True Zodiac Braves and possibly could have been the deciding factor.
4. The exact nature isn't really known but I would have to guess they pick partners based on if the partners had lofty goals of conquering a large portion of the world.
but why does other holders of stones not get possessed by them?
Because simply its a pact and there is mutual understanding between the two of them. Wiegraf/Belial shows a major example of this, with that much power all of Ivalice might as well just be a playground to them.
The reason I ask this is because while Meliadoul is an iffy subject considering she was a littler on the darker side before joining Ramza, Izlude was blatantly evil yet neither were possessed by their respective stones.
Where did you reach this conclusion? O_o
Neither of them knew their very own father was in league with the Lucavi until they saw it with their own eyes. Maybe had things went differently they could have had a plan with Mel and her Stone.
Marach being REVIVED by a stone
Theory: going by what I said in part 1, I believe its a piece of the TZB's powers left in the Stones. That or Marach being revived really was a miracle.
Katawa Shoujo: The visual novel that defies and kicks logic to the curb.
Official contender to fight for Lilly as waifu.
(Topic Creator)2 years ago#3
Oh wow, thank you for posting, that helps a lot and makes sense. Honestly, when I created this thread I thought no one would reply and just forgot about it after the first day or so, but it's good to see someone took the time to think about it.
As for me jumping to conclusions about Folmarv/Vormav's children, that's why I said Meliadoul was an iffy subject, she was obviously light-hearted but was still a shrine knight with a stone, however, Izlude was more blatantly influenced by the shrine knight's motives yet did not interact with his stone at all. That all doesn't matter now though since you said a pact is needed with the beasts and thinking about the cutscenes that I remember, it does make sense (I should replay this game sometime).
Finally, I don't get your Dark reference haha
And on the 8th day God said "Let there be fivehead!" and it was good. - wonderbreadman
2 years ago#4
I'll take a crack at this.
1) yes, that would be a safe assumption
2) they lost a war with the Occuria and were sealed there
3) I don't know if they were always connected with each other, but by the time 12 rolls around (and, by extension, Tactics), many of them had been in alliance for some time. At some point in the 12-past, they pooled their resources to try and overthrow the Occuria. And failed.
It is, however, important to note that Zodiark/Elidibs/Serpentarius does NOT appear to be operating on the same agenda as the other Lucavi. They want to dominate the world, while he/it is completely content hanging out in a dank cave somewhere.
4) For hosts, according to Vormav/Folmarv, it's a compatibility issue. He discusses this in a scene with Elmdore just prior to the second battle at Elmdore's castle.
In terms of possession, the stones don't seem to work that way. The compatible holder is not possessed so much as given the choice to enter into a contract of sorts. There's an old Catholic teaching that in order for demonic possession to occur, the host must invite the demon in. Sell his or her soul in exchange for something, so to speak. That's what's going on here. Now, this isn't what happens with Alma. However, this is likely part of why Folmarv has to undergo a complex ritual to resurrect Ultima. Everyone else just needs to have the stone, experience despair and agree to a contract. Alma, unlike Dycedarg, Wiegraf, Elmdore (etc) has a more similar temperment to Rafa, so it's unlikely the "normal" strategy would result in that particular Esper's resurrection.
Izlude and Meliadoul aren't evil or dark. They're just in the dark. If the battle with Izlude lasts long enough, he and Ramza will start speaking with each other. In short, ideologically, they're on the exact same page. Izlude actually offers Ramza the chance to join the Templars. They're not opposites; they're just mirror images aligned with different factions. If their fathers had been reversed, they'd switch places as well. Izlude's faction just happens to not genuinely be working toward what he thinks they are. And in Meliadoul's case, she thinks she's chasing a Devil Worshipper who murdered her brother. The second she figures out that's wrong, she switches sides.
Mustadio is very likely not compatible with a stone, but probably wouldn't align himself with one even if he was.
Malak's revival is tricky. In terms of "how" that happened, I don't have an answer. It's purposefully vague. The stones are divine vessals. Their very divinity necessitates that humans can't completely grok their nature.
But I can tell you "why" that event is in the story. It's a statement that power is not always inherently corruptive. It depends on the hand that wields it. Throughout FFT, we see the just and gentle suffer while the corrupt ascend (until Ramza kills them, at least). This Malak/Rafa event is the rare counterexample.
Rafa's usage of the stone is there to tell us that humans still have the choice to do good, even when they have the power to dominate at their fingertips. ETA: Beowulf and Reis is a second example of this.
2 years ago#5
Just to comment on the revival of Malak: I always interpreted that as showing that the stones themselves were not a corrupting influence, but the entity inside was. Because the way i thought about it, they had to be powerful divine relics to begin with in order to even serve as a prison for the lucavi.
So when malak is revived, it is the original divine power of the stone that speaks and performs the act. God, or what have you that provides the holy power of the stones, in universe, not the lucavi trapped within, is what performed the resurrection.
--- Currently playing:Dark Souls, Dragon's Crown, FFXIV(Diabolos)
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2 years ago#6
I'm honestly a bit shocked alma wasn't all over this one. But nicely done Terran
2 years ago#7
i really wanted to participate but it seriously is equivalent to a history dissertation to flesh out the zodiac brave story.
the biggest bridge in the story is actually the most shunned game: ffxii revenant wings -- it ties xii and fft together quite well.