Goku vs Superman

#41CattpridePosted 6/27/2009 3:34:40 PM

sshelio posted...
Kid Buu blew up the Earth but he didn't vaporize it. The DB characters simply can't create attacks that ****ing large... they just can't. Kid Buu can blow a planet to chunks but he can't engulf and vaporize it. If Kid Buu, one of the strongest characters in the series, can't even create an attack that can cover and destroy one single planet what makes you, or anybody, think the DB characters can create one that can engulf billions of galaxies?
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~Helio
http://killmoderation.com



How do you know they can't? Because you never saw them doing it on screen?

Now you're just pulling random crap out of your ass. What is the difference between completely vaporizing a planet and just blowing it into tiny pieces? I don't see any. It's destroyed either way.

In DBZ, there are only 4 galaxies. North, South, East, and West, plue the Kai's planet right in the middle. Broly destroyed a large portion/all of the Southern galaxy, and Kid Buu also destroyed thousands of planets I think before killing the Kais. By that, I mant that someone powerful enough (an SSJ4 fusion for example) could destroy the DBZ universe in one mighty blast. And then te other universes, however many there may be. Eventually, unless there were infinite universes, he could end existence altogether.

Oh, and, Kid Buu in't that really one of the strongest. He's up there, but nowhere near the top. Here's a list of characters stronger than him:
SSJ3 Goku
SSJ4 Goku
SSJ4 Vegeta
Ultimate Gohan
SSJ3 Gotenks
Vegito
Super Vegito
Super Gogeta
SSJ4 Gogeta
Baby Vegeta
Super 17
Syn Shenron
Omega Shenron
Nuova Shenron
Eis Shenron
A bunch of other Shenrons who aren't important or memorable enough
Super Buu
Fat Buu

#42ShriekingRodentPosted 6/27/2009 4:11:05 PM
Okay, I can keep it on topic. I was just surprised someone was willing to argue so strongly in the Surfer's favor. And with regards to Savage, he apparently isn't done with his analysis yet, so I was waiting. However, I do kind of want to address one thing:

Oh, and also, don't argue that Superman could supposedly hold 1 million suns in one hand.

There is a reason why fans draw a line between pre-crisis and post-crisis Superman, and I imagine this is one of them. Seriously, that is one of the stupidest things I have ever even heard of occurring in comics. Stupider than Galactus getting drunk. Stupider than Aunt May becoming a herald of Galactus. Stupider than Spiderman beating up Firelord. Hell, even stupider than Secret Wars and Molecule Man rebuilding a galaxy. And yes, stupider than even anything in Dragonball. When exactly did this occur? My guess is it is a resounding example of some of the Silver Age Stupidity that was supposed to be eliminated by Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Seriously, what year was this published? I would be amazed if it was a modern-age comic. I mean, exactly what was this object? And if it wasn't a black hole, why not? How could anything with a coherent enough structure to be actually held by something the size of a man's hand, with that much mass, not collapse in on itself? How was it made? How big is it? And what does "holding" it mean? Usually something a mass of a million solar masses would be a galaxy. But you can't hold a galaxy, since it is a loose collection of separate objects. Even if you did somehow gather the mass of a galaxy into a single object, and keep it from collapsing into a singularity, again, what does "holding" it mean? Did Superman just have his hand on it? I mean, giant objects in space don't have an actual "weight," they don't "fall" or anything, they just float around. Was this on a planet? Then how would that work. The tidal forces of such an object would most likely destroy any planet before it even reached its solar system. This thing would distort space and time to such a huge degree that by the time it was close enough to another object for Superman to try and separate them by just the span of his arms, the smaller object would have already been utterly destroyed. I doubt even its atoms would be intact at a distance of a couple of meters.

Seriously, everything about that statement is just mind-bogglingly stupid. And saying only that it is "something" or "an object" doesn't exactly help. I mean, could you possibly be more vague?

Although, now that I think about it, "tanking" an explosion that could supposedly destroy half the galaxy is pretty stupid too, although only on one level, not several. Let's put it like this. Strap a man-sized lump of diamond to a nuclear warhead and set it off. Will the diamond be damaged? Probably not, or at least not much. Will that prevent everything else around it from getting destroyed? No, not in the least.

I mean, seriously. It's an EXPLOSION. A man sized object can't block a galaxy sized explosion. It just doesn't work. The only way it could is if this galaxy destroying warhead were conveniently small enough to fit within his hands. That at least makes it somewhat physically possible (though still pretty absurd). Of course, it also makes it blatantly an act of plot, with the writer just trying to make Superman as awesome as possible, rather than being interested in, you know, decent writing.
#43sshelioPosted 6/27/2009 5:42:37 PM
How do you know they can't? Because you never saw them doing it on screen?

Yes. That's how you determine anything. You can't just sit there and say "Gee, I think they could do this" with nothing to back it up other then your wishing.


Now you're just pulling random crap out of your ass. What is the difference between completely vaporizing a planet and just blowing it into tiny pieces? I don't see any. It's destroyed either way.

It's about the size of the attack involved. If the DB characters are unable to create an attack as large as a single planet, and can only blow it up by drilling a hole through it, there's no way they can possibly destroy a star system, let alone a galaxy or the goddamn universe.


In DBZ, there are only 4 galaxies. North, South, East, and West, plue the Kai's planet right in the middle.

I thought we were talking about Galaxies in general but still, the point remains.


Broly destroyed a large portion/all of the Southern galaxy,

Brolly busted up the Galaxy throughout the course of his life. He didn't just wake up on a Wednesday and say "**** it, I think I'll just go destroy this section of space" and do so in the course of an afternoon. Besides, who the **** cares what Toei makes their little pet do? He's not part of the DB canon.


Kid Buu also destroyed thousands of planets I think before killing the Kais.

And he did so by going to planet-to-planet with Bobidi in the magic ball. Buu didn't just sit in the middle of space and start putting out the twinkily little lights he could see.


By that, I mant that someone powerful enough (an SSJ4 fusion for example) could destroy the DBZ universe in one mighty blast. And then te other universes, however many there may be. Eventually, unless there were infinite universes, he could end existence altogether.

No they couldn't. They have never been shown to be able to create an attack that size. Potency isn't the issue here it's size. If you lined up every planet in the universe then yeah, they could probably shiskabob them with an attack but to create a single attack that can destroy everything in the universe is beyond what they are capable of.


SSJ3 Goku
SSJ4 Goku
SSJ4 Vegeta
Ultimate Gohan
SSJ3 Gotenks
Vegito
Super Vegito
Super Gogeta
SSJ4 Gogeta
Baby Vegeta
Super 17
Syn Shenron
Omega Shenron
Nuova Shenron
Eis Shenron
A bunch of other Shenrons who aren't important or memorable enough
Super Buu
Fat Buu


Kid Buu is as strong as SSJ3 Goku so if you have him up there Kid Buu is up there as well. And for ****s sake drop the GT garbage.


There is a reason why fans draw a line between pre-crisis and post-crisis Superman, and I imagine this is one of them.

Seriously, nobody should even be bothering with Pre-crisis/Silver Age Superman stuff. The guy was a walking Dues ex Machina; he could literally develop new super powers on a whim. A fight between Goku and PC Superman would end with Superman developing a new super power that let him absorb or negate Goku's chi... or some similar BS.
---
~Helio
http://killmoderation.com
#44CattpridePosted 6/27/2009 6:01:48 PM

sshelio posted...
How do you know they can't? Because you never saw them doing it on screen?

Yes. That's how you determine anything. You can't just sit there and say "Gee, I think they could do this" with nothing to back it up other then your wishing.


Now you're just pulling random crap out of your ass. What is the difference between completely vaporizing a planet and just blowing it into tiny pieces? I don't see any. It's destroyed either way.

It's about the size of the attack involved. If the DB characters are unable to create an attack as large as a single planet, and can only blow it up by drilling a hole through it, there's no way they can possibly destroy a star system, let alone a galaxy or the goddamn universe.


In DBZ, there are only 4 galaxies. North, South, East, and West, plue the Kai's planet right in the middle.

I thought we were talking about Galaxies in general but still, the point remains.


Broly destroyed a large portion/all of the Southern galaxy,

Brolly busted up the Galaxy throughout the course of his life. He didn't just wake up on a Wednesday and say "**** it, I think I'll just go destroy this section of space" and do so in the course of an afternoon. Besides, who the **** cares what Toei makes their little pet do? He's not part of the DB canon.


Kid Buu also destroyed thousands of planets I think before killing the Kais.

And he did so by going to planet-to-planet with Bobidi in the magic ball. Buu didn't just sit in the middle of space and start putting out the twinkily little lights he could see.


By that, I mant that someone powerful enough (an SSJ4 fusion for example) could destroy the DBZ universe in one mighty blast. And then te other universes, however many there may be. Eventually, unless there were infinite universes, he could end existence altogether.

No they couldn't. They have never been shown to be able to create an attack that size. Potency isn't the issue here it's size. If you lined up every planet in the universe then yeah, they could probably shiskabob them with an attack but to create a single attack that can destroy everything in the universe is beyond what they are capable of.


SSJ3 Goku
SSJ4 Goku
SSJ4 Vegeta
Ultimate Gohan
SSJ3 Gotenks
Vegito
Super Vegito
Super Gogeta
SSJ4 Gogeta
Baby Vegeta
Super 17
Syn Shenron
Omega Shenron
Nuova Shenron
Eis Shenron
A bunch of other Shenrons who aren't important or memorable enough
Super Buu
Fat Buu


Kid Buu is as strong as SSJ3 Goku so if you have him up there Kid Buu is up there as well. And for ****s sake drop the GT garbage.


There is a reason why fans draw a line between pre-crisis and post-crisis Superman, and I imagine this is one of them.

Seriously, nobody should even be bothering with Pre-crisis/Silver Age Superman stuff. The guy was a walking Dues ex Machina; he could literally develop new super powers on a whim. A fight between Goku and PC Superman would end with Superman developing a new super power that let him absorb or negate Goku's chi... or some similar BS.
---
~Helio
http://killmoderation.com



I was hoping someone would bring up canon.
Canon doesn't count. If you guys can put in all the million versions of Superman and their grandmas which aren't even in the same Superman timeline/universe/dimension as each other, then it not fair to tell me that I can't put in Broly, who IS in the DBZ series, and IS in the same universe/dimenson/timeline as the rest of the characters.

If you want to make this a senseful comparison at ALL, then only include the first Superman made, and compare him to the Goku that has remained the same character in the same timeline/universe/dimension throughout Dragonball/Z/GT.

Ah yes, I believe that Fat Buu was weaker than SSJ3 Goku, and Kid Buu is weaker than Fat Buu. Therefore, SSJ3 Goku>Fat Buu>Kid Buu. Since Kid Buu had absorbed a bunch of Kais, he had become stronger and turned into Fat Buu. It doesn't make any sense that he absorbs someone and becomes weaker. Kid Buu was just pure evil and insane, and therefore an excellent fighter, however, he was NOT stronger than Fat Buu. Oh, and Goku was low on energy when they fought, which is why he could only beat Buu when Dende wished for Porunga to give him all his energy back.

No chi, Ki, and I hold to the fact that someone powerful enough could create an explosion large enough to destroy all/most of the universe, or at the very least, one of the galaxies in one blast.

#45sshelioPosted 6/27/2009 6:18:54 PM
Canon doesn't count. If you guys can put in all the million versions of Superman and their grandmas which aren't even in the same Superman timeline/universe/dimension as each other, then it not fair to tell me that I can't put in Broly, who IS in the DBZ series, and IS in the same universe/dimenson/timeline as the rest of the characters.

He's not in the same universe/dimension/timeline. That's the goddamn point. Brolly is part of his own self contained continuity. He's not part of the actual story. He's no more relevant then Piccolo from the live action movie. And for the record, unless stated by the TC, they shouldn't be bringing Golden Age, Silver Age, All-Star, DC 1 Million, or whatever other non-canon or defunct versions of Superman into a discussion. The main problem is most these people don't know there is a difference. They don't even know what Crisis on Infinite Earths was.


If you want to make this a senseful comparison at ALL, then only include the first Superman made, and compare him to the Goku that has remained the same character in the same timeline/universe/dimension throughout Dragonball/Z/GT.

No, you use the canon version of the characters. Comparing Goku to Golden Age Superman is silly. Superman during the '20's is not the same guy he is now. Literally. He's from a different universe and dead.


Ah yes, I believe that Fat Buu was weaker than SSJ3 Goku, and Kid Buu is weaker than Fat Buu. Therefore, SSJ3 Goku>Fat Buu>Kid Buu. Since Kid Buu had absorbed a bunch of Kais, he had become stronger and turned into Fat Buu. It doesn't make any sense that he absorbs someone and becomes weaker. Kid Buu was just pure evil and insane, and therefore an excellent fighter, however, he was NOT stronger than Fat Buu. Oh, and Goku was low on energy when they fought, which is why he could only beat Buu when Dende wished for Porunga to give him all his energy back.

When Kid Buu absorbed Jolly old Dai Kaioshin he changed him and made him docile effectively putting a barrier stopping Buu from reaching his full power. Goku states he could have beaten Fat Buu but didn't because he wanted the boys to do it. Goku and Kid Buu later stalemate. Yes, Goku and Vegeta do say that a full powered attack could beat Kid Buu but using that to say Goku is stronger then Kid Buu is like saying Piccolo > Radditz in the Saiyan arc because of the Makankosappo, which would be silly.

Goku >= Kid Buu > Fat Buu.


No chi, Ki,

Same damn thing. Ki is the Japanese word for Chi.


I hold to the fact that someone powerful enough could create an explosion large enough to destroy all/most of the universe, or at the very least, one of the galaxies in one blast.

Go ahead. I obviously can't stop you but you have absolutely no proof to back it up.
---
~Helio
http://killmoderation.com
#46CattpridePosted 6/27/2009 6:28:32 PM

sshelio posted...
Canon doesn't count. If you guys can put in all the million versions of Superman and their grandmas which aren't even in the same Superman timeline/universe/dimension as each other, then it not fair to tell me that I can't put in Broly, who IS in the DBZ series, and IS in the same universe/dimenson/timeline as the rest of the characters.

He's not in the same universe/dimension/timeline. That's the goddamn point. Brolly is part of his own self contained continuity. He's not part of the actual story. He's no more relevant then Piccolo from the live action movie. And for the record, unless stated by the TC, they shouldn't be bringing Golden Age, Silver Age, All-Star, DC 1 Million, or whatever other non-canon or defunct versions of Superman into a discussion. The main problem is most these people don't know there is a difference. They don't even know what Crisis on Infinite Earths was.


If you want to make this a senseful comparison at ALL, then only include the first Superman made, and compare him to the Goku that has remained the same character in the same timeline/universe/dimension throughout Dragonball/Z/GT.

No, you use the canon version of the characters. Comparing Goku to Golden Age Superman is silly. Superman during the '20's is not the same guy he is now. Literally. He's from a different universe and dead.


Ah yes, I believe that Fat Buu was weaker than SSJ3 Goku, and Kid Buu is weaker than Fat Buu. Therefore, SSJ3 Goku>Fat Buu>Kid Buu. Since Kid Buu had absorbed a bunch of Kais, he had become stronger and turned into Fat Buu. It doesn't make any sense that he absorbs someone and becomes weaker. Kid Buu was just pure evil and insane, and therefore an excellent fighter, however, he was NOT stronger than Fat Buu. Oh, and Goku was low on energy when they fought, which is why he could only beat Buu when Dende wished for Porunga to give him all his energy back.

When Kid Buu absorbed Jolly old Dai Kaioshin he changed him and made him docile effectively putting a barrier stopping Buu from reaching his full power. Goku states he could have beaten Fat Buu but didn't because he wanted the boys to do it. Goku and Kid Buu later stalemate. Yes, Goku and Vegeta do say that a full powered attack could beat Kid Buu but using that to say Goku is stronger then Kid Buu is like saying Piccolo > Radditz in the Saiyan arc because of the Makankosappo, which would be silly.

Goku >= Kid Buu > Fat Buu.


No chi, Ki,

Same damn thing. Ki is the Japanese word for Chi.


I hold to the fact that someone powerful enough could create an explosion large enough to destroy all/most of the universe, or at the very least, one of the galaxies in one blast.

Go ahead. I obviously can't stop you but you have absolutely no proof to back it up.
---
~Helio
http://killmoderation.com



I only have the proof of what I believe.
But how about this analogy? Frieza could create a ball large and strong enough to blow up one planet. Someone 100 times stronger than Frieza could create a ball 100 times stronger and more powerful. Someone 1000 times stronger than Frieza could create a ball 1000 times bigger and stronger. Someone 1 million times stronger than Frieza could create a ball 1 million times larger and more powerful.
Maybe no one would be able to make an entire galaxy explode with one ball, but damn it, they certainly ARE powerful enough to blow it all up with multiple balls, no matter how much time it takes.

And I already told you, it's impossible for Buu to WEAKEN when he absorbs someone. IF SSJ3 Goku was able to beat Fat Buu, then if h was at full energy, he sure could have washed the floor with Kid Buu. However, it seems you've misplaced your sense of logic and reason, as well as your ability to pay attention to what I wrote today/

#47sshelioPosted 6/27/2009 6:38:16 PM
I only have the proof of what I believe.
But how about this analogy? Frieza could create a ball large and strong enough to blow up one planet. Someone 100 times stronger than Frieza could create a ball 100 times stronger and more powerful. Someone 1000 times stronger than Frieza could create a ball 1000 times bigger and stronger. Someone 1 million times stronger than Frieza could create a ball 1 million times larger and more powerful.
Maybe no one would be able to make an entire galaxy explode with one ball, but damn it, they certainly ARE powerful enough to blow it all up with multiple balls, no matter how much time it takes.


That is nothing more then speculation. I have a feat, on panel, by Kid Buu that backs me up. You have nothing but "well, I think he could". Regardless, I'm tired of this.


And I already told you, it's impossible for Buu to WEAKEN when he absorbs someone. IF SSJ3 Goku was able to beat Fat Buu, then if h was at full energy, he sure could have washed the floor with Kid Buu. However, it seems you've misplaced your sense of logic and reason, as well as your ability to pay attention to what I wrote today/

Really? It's stated by Kaioshin that when Buu absorbed Jolly Old Dai Kaioshin it made him less aggressive and weakened him. Dai Kaioshin's essence and personality changed Buu's and in turn effectively weakened him and cut him off from his true strength. This is stated. So how about before you go around telling people their logic is misplaced and their reasoning's wrong you learn the damn subject matter.
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~Helio
http://killmoderation.com
#48Master MishimiPosted 6/27/2009 7:08:45 PM
Well now, this topic is starting to fail.....
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Read Mishimi's rants, reviews, research, and recollections on various subjects in this world! - http://mishimisblog.blogspot.com/
#49FamilyRadio_comPosted 6/27/2009 9:29:43 PM
Guys, lets try to stay on topic and keep with the facts and avoid speculations.

Fact:
SSJ4 Gogeta's ("BIG BANG KAMEHAMEHA") is an incredible blast of unimaginable power that can destroy many planets if they were in a straight line and very close to each other, but planets are hundreds, thousands, millions and even more distance away from each other and they are spread out from each other all across the galaxy, in different locations and directions. It would be too much of a speculation to say that even a Big Bang Super Explosive Wave could destroy the galaxy. Back to Goku vs Superman.

Fact:
Superman is not an invincible god, so we know that he can be hurt and killed. Superman is tough enough to withstand bullets and Goku can toughen himself to be able to withstand the same as you can see with a X2 Perfect Cell ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rC3pWIuHyw ), yet someone way stronger than Perfect Cell can,

1] Punch a hole right through him ( SSJ1Trunks Vs Bojack henchman )

2] Fire a piercing beam through him

3] Cut through him with a destructo disc

4] Go through him with a piercing Dragon Fist that, as we have seen go through any thing and any one

5] Vaporize him with a violent planet killing blast

6] Completely out class him in a fight and beat him to death ( SSJ2 Teen Gohan took that into practice and almost did it )

Common sense should tell everyone that since Superman can be hurt, as tough as he is and as tough as Perfect Cell is, when we really think about it we can see that every attack on the list above can harm both Perfect Cell and Superman.

Fact:
Superman doesn't fight fast and that is what would make him very very vulnerable to everything Goku can do at a higher powerlevel.

When Vegeta was at a weaker level he described a DBZ level of fighting that was even too fast for Saiyan eyes to follow and both Goku and Vegeta ascended way beyond that level.

Superman could not compete on that level of fighting and you will never see him at that level of crazy fast DBZGT fighting either, in any of his series, cartoon or comics.

Verdict is that Superman is way outclassed and was never meant to compete on that scale of fighting and you can not find a way to put him there because he doesn't belong there. DBZGT is just too radical.

Goku wins
#50Master MishimiPosted 6/27/2009 10:22:34 PM
LOL @ using GT, but not facts from all Superman sources....
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Read Mishimi's rants, reviews, research, and recollections on various subjects in this world! - http://mishimisblog.blogspot.com/