Underestimated/Overlooked Monsters?

#1BoFIIIFanPosted 5/12/2012 12:33:05 PM
I mean everyone knows how awesome "God Tier" monsters like : Liquid Metal Slimes, Metal Slimes, Hyperanemon, Killing Machine, Great Dragon, King Cureslime, and Great Dragon are.

We also know how great "A Tier" monsters like : Golem, Slime Knight, Gigantes, Healslime and Cureslime are.

But what about these monsters : Hades Helm, Goodybag, Magic Marionette, Orc King, Hoodlum, and Old Man of the Sea. They seem to have very good resistances and aren't too hard to recruit. Some even have good spells and armor too. What do you guys think?
#2nfrazee28Posted 5/12/2012 1:43:22 PM
I've said on about a bizillion threads that I like Chimaera a lot. I also like getting a Warhog specifically for the purpose of renaming him Andy. I would say Orc King on your list isn't one that's overlooked; along with Slime Knight, he's one of the ones that's pretty widely known to be viable all game long amongst the easy recruits. Possibly more overlooked than that is how good a regular old run-of-the-mill slime gets when you take the time to level one all the way up.

I have a completionist file that is missing exactly one recruitable monster: Barbatos. I finally caught a LMS on it not all that long ago. I have in mind to level up every one of the monsters to cap before I finally call that file done, though I don't play that file all that often, so that will take me a very long time to accomplish. I actually have two Old Men of the Sea sitting at Monty's on that (78 monsters total have been recruited; I have space for my Barbatos and one more duplicate). The second OMOTS was an accidental recruit, then I decided to keep him so I could rename one Ernest and the other H-Way because there aren't enough characters to fully spell out "Hemingway". I have yet to use those guys or start to level then up, but before all is said and done I'll have tried every monster in the game. Unfortunately, it'll take me long enough to do that that it won't necessarily help this thread.

I already have around 20 monsters maxed out, capped, and all finished, but these are all the ones that cap at the lowest experience totals, so I already have a good feel for a number of the utterly useless ones, like Funghoul, Ticking Timeburrm, Cross Eye, Mudraker, Walking Corpse, Fat Rat, Small Fry, and so on.

I, too, am interested in seeing if others have any opinions on some hidden gem monsters that they like using more than the popular consensus ones.
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#3BoFIIIFan(Topic Creator)Posted 5/12/2012 2:38:18 PM
@nfrazee28

You are right about Orc King, I meant to include him into the "A Tier" but I messed up.

But what are your thoughts on the other ones? Like Hades Helm, Magic Marionette, Hoodlum, Goodybag, etc... It's ok if you haven't used them yet, I was just looking over their stats/resistances (theorycrafting) and wondering if these guys are overlooked. I mean on paper, they seem like they would rock.
#4Alanna82Posted 5/12/2012 3:18:17 PM(edited)
Small Fry isn't that useless. At the beginning of the game it is useful since it has flame resistance and can put the Magmen to sleep.

Jailcat is under rated. Tongue lashing works on the Faux Dowager quite often. 75% of the time I'm guessing, and it has good attack power. It also caps at 99 so it never becomes "useless"

Grudgerigar is the only monster available for the final second part dungeon that has sheen. The Helms in there use Curse attacks, sometimes they stick. It also has Oomph, Kasap and Kabuff.

Fat rat wins the most useless monster award, it has early game stats and is only available after Zenithia flies.

Yes this topic inspired me to log into my account I haven't used in over a year. I also have a completionist monster file, I'm only missing 9 monsters- LMS, Barbatos, Killing Machine, Bomboulder, Hyperanemon, Archdemon, Conkjurer, Conkuisitor and the two bonus monsters for beating the final pachisi board.

Goodybag won't obey you unless you give it wisdom seeds. Did you know that stat seeds influence your stat growth? I gave my goodybag wisdom seeds and it started growing wisdom! Only one per level, but it helped since I didn't have enough seeds to get to twenty wisdom. (I tried this with the Pip's. It gave them more MP growth. The Wiz pip is now gaining 1 mp per level up most of the time!) Any one else discover this?

Oh: Hoodlum is pretty much only good as a metal slime killer with the Hela hammer. Pretty generic otherwise. Just got my OMOTS and haven't used my Hades Helm or my Magic Marionette.
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Happily married to Wiggumfan267 on Valentines day, 2005.
#5nfrazee28Posted 5/12/2012 4:14:28 PM
Of those four you listed, BoFIIIFan, the only one I've ever used is Goodybag, and that was quite a while ago. If I recall, he mostly sat in the wagon just to get capped, so I may very well have overlooked something there if he's anything other than a total waste.

Whenever I play that file, I'm mostly in the bonus dungeon just to see if a Barbatos ever decides to stand up for me, and luckily that place has the wagon along. I can build all eight active characters as I do that, and the way I have my team arranged is hero at L99, Starkers and Rebjorn with Starkers walking and ReBjorn hidden in the wagon with them synchronized at roughly L30 right now, two humans rotating through building four levels at a time (all five of my other humans besides hero are between L56 and 60), and three other spots. Those three are for a dedicated healer character, one other L99 capper, and one that caps very low just to finish off.

I once took the Brady guide and transcribed all the max XP totals for each, and rewrote the list in order of least experience necessary to cap regardless of level to most. Right now that "lowmax" character is my Hyperanemon, and man, his level-up stat gains each time are fantastic. My current L99 capper building happens to be a pip fighter.

Alanna, that's very interesting about the goodybag and the seeds. Certain monsters have interesting patterns of leveling up; I wonder if this might have also been in play. For example, I ditched a Hulagan not long ago when she capped, but her last few levels gained zilch. No HP, no MP, and straight zeros for all five stats, so she was effectively capped with around three or four levels to go. Conversely, Starkers and ReBjorn, who you don't have yet, gain virtually nothing until L60 and it takes forever to get them there, but then their last 40 levels see ridiculous unbelieveable gains until they're amazing characters by L99. This is based solely on what I've read others post, because for me they're still down 30 levels to go before the rocket, and yes, ReBjorn would get killed by a stiff wind. Starkers starts out reasonably viable, but ReBjorn does not.

When I lumped Small Fry into the useless pile I was mainly thinking about long term and the endgame, but you're right about him early, same with Grudgerigar, for those very reasons. I actually quite like the Powie Yowie for early in gen 2 because the breath attacks are free and if you do enough casino grinding he can equip the gringham whip.

And, wow, what a nine (technically ten even though you do get Starkers and ReBjorn one right after the other) to still have left to collect. Four of the five 1/256, two conks, two 1/64 only found in very specific spots, and a necessary TNT win. You have a great deal of a grind left to get that list finished, if you care to get that list finished.
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#6BoFIIIFan(Topic Creator)Posted 5/12/2012 5:09:10 PM
@Alanna82

Nope, that Seeds discovery is news to me! Thanks for that little bit of info.

Regarding your discovery, you think this would save monsters like Epiphany from being totally useless? I mean he/she has got great spells and excellent max stats BUT it's MP score is pathetic! :(

Regarding the Goodybag. Yes, it's Wis score is sad and yes you need to pump it with some Wisdom Seeds for it to understand and obey you, but it's stats aren't terrible and it's immunities are awesome (plus it's not that hard to get and it's easy to max it's level).

Regarding the Hoodlum, you feel it's generic? IMHO, it's HP and Strength score are very good, it's easy to get it to lvl cap, good weapons/armor selection, it's not hard to recruit, and it's immunities are pretty sweet too.

@nfrazee28

The Goodybag and the others I listed have some excellent resistances and a few good stat scores.
#7nfrazee28Posted 5/12/2012 5:40:31 PM
That would be the test to do: give seeds of magic to an epipany or its equivalent conk cousin and see if that causes a higher MP total by level 99 than just 50, even above and beyond the natural growths plus the seeds. Those two monsters naturally cap with around 50 MP, which is indeed pathetic, and which total keeps them from being dominant spellcasters and must-use monsters. It's too bad seeds of magic are so hard to come by; the friendliest drop rate from any monster is 1/64 from quadrahead. To farm enough seeds to turn the pip and conk mages viable then dominant after viable would take forever.

I would want that idea empirically tested more on more monsters besides goodybag before I'd fully dive into believing it's universal, and the pip and conk spellcasters would be a good place to do it.
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#8BoFIIIFan(Topic Creator)Posted 5/15/2012 2:53:23 AM
Hmm I wonder if this Wisdom Seed trick works? I'm thinking it must be sort of intentional if it does. I mean why bother giving the various "Pips" and "Conks" spells if their MP is so pathetic they really can't cast them much at all?

There has to be something up with those enemy types.
#9Alanna82Posted 5/16/2012 10:43:11 AM
I did start a test with the Pips, I just need the Conk equivalent to see if it really works. I gave the Wiz Pip two seeds of magic. One gave +4 MP, one gave +5. this gave him 10 total MP. At level 22, Wiz pip now has 18 MP. According to the Brady games guide. A level 25 Wiz Pip should have 3 total MP. Even subtracting the 9 from the two seeds this gives 9 MP! I gave him the two seeds at level 10, since it wouldn't let me give the seeds until Wiz Pip gained an mp.

The brady guide says the conks have the same stat growth as the Pips so I will not give the Conks any seeds. They just need to join me. The two I have wont work for the experiment.

Still waiting on the Conks. Tried again last night. Levelling up my Humans, Hero, Parry, Madchen and Bianca are on level 64 right now. Madchen gets crazy good stat growth after level 45. Parry after level 60 started getting massive strength and agility. Besides Kafrizzle, Bianca is pretty much useless and worse than Madchen. (though she does have better HP and MP)

Also on another file (My Nera file) I got a Chimaera in 2 battles, a Grudgegeriar in 2 battles, and a Restless Armor in 3. Yet a Slime knight didn't join me. (okay so I didn't try very hard, but still, Slime knights are usually automatic) I just got Bianca to go get the ring of water. Jailcat is beginning to suffer from lack of equipment. Trying out the slime since I never have taken it this high of level, its Kasap and Kabuff are useful, but I feel its being outshined but the Grudgerigar.

Also, Magmen can be dazzled. Not that useful, but it works.

This game has become my favorite game so I would love to see how much we can discover.
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Happily married to Wiggumfan267 on Valentines day, 2005.
#10nfrazee28Posted 5/16/2012 12:41:54 PM
I guess because of my penchant for thinking in terms of completionist finished products, that's why I gave so many of those early game low-cap monsters the short shrift. The Grudgerigar caps at level 20, while the slime keeps going, so in the long run that sheen spell is about it for why anybody would consider keeping him active. In the early going, rotten apple actually gains a pretty hard hitting direct damge shot and it takes very little time to get him to his L20 cap also, but then he gets outclassed by other monsters who last quite a bit longer.

Regarding the Slime Knight, the "easy to recruit" tier has two sets of odds: 1/2 and 1/4. Either way, they're very very easy, but it's mathematically feasible that a 1:4 recruit, which the SK indeed is, will not stand up to join even after 4 or 6 or 8 tries or more. It's starts to get increasingly unlikely the more chances you give, but it's not impossible. I bet if you just decided to go get him, it wouldn't take long.

I'll continue to pursue Barbatos on the one file, but once I get him (whenever that is) that file will become a seed of magic farming fest from Quadraheads and I'll work with the Epipany and the Conkuisitor (I think those are the correct names; the ones who hold up the crosses, whichever specific names go with those ones) to experiment with this idea also. That would be an amazing discovery that would save on tons of seeds.

The other active DQ5 file I have is a ridiculous completionism start, modeled after the one bwakel_ketsu posted a couple years ago. His is probably 10 or 12 pages down the GameFaqs board here, but essentially he wasn't satisfied until every single monster, recruitables and non-recruitables alike, was at 999 kills in the big book and every unlimited item was in the bag 99 times.

I started one like that myself and work it a little at a time, but it's still in Gen 1, and goes slowly because the few missable gen 1 monsters need to be done completely before I can move to the recruitment phase of the game. I need to get to 999 Screwball Pitchers, which takes forever because their encounter rate is low, then I'll need to fight 999 Eyelashers in the Ancient Ruins, so it'll still be a month or more before I'm even doing any recruiting on that file. I'm approaching 800 Screwball Pitchers now, but their encounter rate outside the ruins is low enough that I can play for 15 or 20 minutes and still only have fought 10 or 15 of them.

This is pretty much my favourite game, too. Gun to my head, I would say it's a tie between this one and GBC DW3.
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