Miranda and Jack confrontation (Actual intelligence contained within)

#1VengefulKylePosted 3/4/2010 9:02:18 PM
Before the rude people remark, yes I've used the Search option, didnt find the answers I was looking for so I'm posting something of my own, along with my own suspicions.
After my second playthrough and having the "No one Left Behind" achievement slip through my fingers again, it's starting to become a little puzzling.

I've always been the good guy sort in RPGs, from Fable, KOTOR, and finally Mass Effect. The Light Side, Good, Open Palm, Paragon, whatever you want to call it, I've stuck to it for quite awhile. Now my problem has been this, on both playthroughs of this great sequel, neither time has the paragon choice to quell the post Loyalty mission squabble between Jack and Miranda been available, thus ruining my chances on getting the aforementioned achievement. I'll describe both playthroughs as some might question circumstances. First playthrough, lost Miranda's loyalty, wasnt a big deal when it came up, but I'd figure I'd rectify it in a later playthrough. Final mission comes along, things go off without a hitch cept Thane's death due to lack of weapon upgrades, and Mordin dying after they held the door right before the end of the mission. Two casualties, one who was on his way out anyway, not so bad when 100% casualties was the favorite in the Cerberus office pool.
My second playthrough comes around, I've figured I've got his game down pretty cold. I go through it, making sure to take as many Paragon things as possible, go out of my way to complete side missions, doing more than I did my first play obviously. I figured my Paragon was too low in my first play to make both parties loyal, so I left Jack's loyalty mission for last. I did Miranda's close to the end as well, both fairing close to when I did my IFF mission. So finally by the end of Jack's loyalty mission I'm a bit over 80% paragon. I'm thinking I've got this, I'm well on my way. The argument of PMSers granted the use of the Force comes around, and the options are -still- grayed out. It was a bit demoralizing, but I pressed on unabaded, Miranda hadent died on the first playthrough, not given any jobs except when her and the rest of the flunkies stayed behind to guard the door, so Jack would be alright....right?.... Turns out wrong, after taking my supped up Normandy and hitting the Collector Base in the teeth, I made all the right personnel choices and got right to the end. I take Garrus and Grunt (my standard team) off to fight Mecha-Jesus and leave Jack and the rest to guard the door (I initially looked for options to get them to not guard the door, but found no such option, so I was kinda stuck with them "holding the line). Having made Mordin take his pale posterior and the surviving Normandy crew (hopefully that means I'll get my dream of a Dr.Chakwas romance option in the third game) off back to the ship, I felt I was secured, and all Jack had to do was stay alive as Miranda had done.
I go off, fight Mecha-Jesus, win, emerge from the wreckage, and low and behold....Jack got her tattoo'd ass shot and killed. The resulting facepalm would've destroyed the Collector base if it wasnt already blowing up. So there I was, stuck with a crazy biotic in a coffin in my cargo hold and no achievement to show for it all.

This is where I ask, you, the Gamefaqs community where I went wrong. After actually using the Search Function I came up with some theories that no one seemed to agree on, and maybe this will be the chance to put some to bed and bring out the truth.

1. The amount of paragon/renegade needed to pacify the situation depends on how far you are in the game.
I dont know if this sounds right, but considering I was smack dab sitting next to the end of the game with enough good and sincerity to rival the Dalai Lama, it doesnt sound accurate.
2. The Paragon choice is glitched for some, and will never unlock for some reason.
This seems a bit shady too but I've nothing to counterpoint it with so it's a bit possible to be sure.
Hope to read sound responses.
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My GT: VengefulKyle
#2VengefulKyle(Topic Creator)Posted 3/4/2010 9:02:55 PM
Forgive the...condensity of the post, I didnt think to make seperate ones until it was already completed.
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My GT: VengefulKyle
#3jonluke93Posted 3/4/2010 9:05:35 PM

you took Garrus and Grunt as your final squad that is where you failed

#4mike_ko10Posted 3/4/2010 9:06:09 PM
Leave Grunt and Garrus to "hold the line". You need your soldier type characters to make sure the "weaker" ones survive. It helps a lot if you have Zaaed (DLC) there too.
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The above post may contain sarcasm.
#5ToozinPosted 3/4/2010 9:07:43 PM
There seems to be a lot of conflicting reports on this and the Tali/Legion fight. There are many theories, ranging from the point check is higher or lower depending on what point you are in the game, to specific choices you make through the game having a direct impact on if the charm/persuade options can appear, to how far in the dialogue tree you are with each character, to a combination of all of the above. No one can say for sure at this point wtf is up.

I can tell you, though, that Jack died on your second time because you took Grunt and Garrus, your two best defenders, away from the line. Jack is super squishy and probably the second most killable character in the suicide mission. Next time you're in that situation leave them and she'll probably make it.
#6TallWhiteNinjaPosted 3/4/2010 9:08:19 PM
1. The amount of paragon/renegade needed to pacify the situation depends on how far you are in the game.

I'm pretty sure it's this one. It sounds counter-intuitive, but I believe you're better served doing Jack and Miranda's missions ASAP.

Samara's mission is the same way: the only time I was able to get the option to recruit Morinth was when I made sure to do her loyalty mission earlier than I usually do.
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Either the worst great player or the best horrible player you'll ever meet.
#7VengefulKyle(Topic Creator)Posted 3/4/2010 9:14:08 PM
What make Garrus and Grunt the best defenders? I know Garrus is the best squad leader alongside Miranda, but Grunt holds no specific role besides asskicker (probably due to being able to kill him before he's even in your squad).

I do admit they seem the most...formidable along with Thane and Legion of the entire team. Zaeed is included since I've got him as well, though I do wish Zaeed was leader potential for the last mission as well, tried that in a demo run, didnt work out.
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My GT: VengefulKyle
#8jtobin227Posted 3/4/2010 9:15:25 PM
First- In order to keep both Jack and Miranda loyal you HAVE to do their loyalty missions first. If anyone tries to tell you otherwise just don't listen. First play through I listened to the "need 100 percent" party and it was damn near impossible. So in the second play through I went with the "get the missions done as early as possible". That camp was correct. The earlier you do those missions the more chance you have of being able to paragon or renegade out of it. I had about 50 percent paragon and I difused the situation with a charm option. The order of loyaty missions I did at that point was Jacob, Miranda, Jack, then Mordin and Grunt. After I had those finished I started with the other recruiting goals.

At the end you're biggest mistake was taking Garrus and Grunt with you to the final battle. What you need to do from the begining is make sure either Garrus/Miranda/Jacob are the secondary team leaders (pretty sure Miranda is the safest bet, Jacob next then Garrus) and use Tali or Legion for the vent. After that send Mordin back with the survivors since he will die if you keep him around. After that I left Garrus, Grunt, Thane, Tali, Legion, Zaeed to hold the line. I took Miranda and Samara into the boss fight with me. And also I had Samara as the biotic specialist. It basically comes down to picking the right people and there are multiple combinations to choose from. Just make sure you don't send someone unloyal to you off to do something important. Also, make sure when it comes time to hold the line choose the speach option as I've heard that gives you a bit of a boost over "we better hurry", and try and keep your most powerful guys back to hold the line like a Garrus/Grunt/Zaeed type. They will do nothing but anchor your line.
#9VengefulKyle(Topic Creator)Posted 3/4/2010 9:15:27 PM
Oh, sorry for another post. But Jack wouldnt get shot so easily if she put some damned clothes on....
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My GT: VengefulKyle
#10jonluke93Posted 3/4/2010 9:17:28 PM

Bioware has stated how the hold the line works basically there is a liittle score for every character and if they add up to 100 (or whatever the requirment is) everyone lives Grunt and Garrus have the two highest scores Zaeed as well (the score is invisible so don't ask how to find it)