Just finished this game. Anyone else feel like Riordan ruined it? *spoilers*

#11Flare_Dragon123Posted 12/4/2012 7:09:44 AM
some09guy II posted...
UnfairRepresent posted...
Yes he explains that the Wardens aren't there but also straight out says that the Blight would be dealt with regardless of your actions.


He never states this.

Flare_Dragon123 posted...
Its not like they're saying, oh no don't worry, we got this thing, its saying that what's happening in Ferelden has a strong chance of happening elsewhere, and the reason you haven't had back-up for the past six months / year or however long the game actually takes place over is that the same guy who you've been after since the start of the game has prevented it with his paranoid nationalism.

In short, WHY IN THE HELL WOULD ANYONE SPARE LOGHAIN!!


It's a lot more complicated than this. Loghain's actions are more sound than people give credit for, largely because people probably don't realize what the war with Orlais entailed and how strained relations continued to be. Things didn't just end with the war. There were numerous assassination attempts since, thwarted largely because he's incredibly observant, not paranoid. In RtO we even learn that Cailan was basically about to allow another takeover likely causing a civil war. By stopping the Orlesians from entering he probably prevented a civil war after the events of the game, if not an outright takeover. He was also not unaware of the need for help. The entirety of the game the two of you are largely doing your part to gather the same allies, only you go after the elves and he tries for Tevinter.

Finally, Ferelden was pretty well doomed but for the Warden regardless of Loghain's actions. Ostagar was unwinnable. One look at the army of darkspawn (stand atop the bridge and look at the torches that move past the horizon) should make that clear. Gaider has stated that, if Duncan had survived, even he would have abandoned Ferelden by that point and set up for the long haul. In other words, there's this idea that the Wardens would have arrived and instantly everything would've been better when, more likely, they'd take one look and go right back to Orlais.


Look all of that stuff is very easy to say. And its easy to quote the stuff written outside of the game.

But you take one look at the actual context we are given within the game and its not that complicated. Loghain never provides any context outside of the previous Orlesian war. He doesn't mention assassinations, he doesn't mention the size of the darkspawn army (no one knows the size of the darkspawn army, except perhaps Grey Wardens)

The problem is he CANNOT KNOW anything, he observes and assumes that the Orlesians will try to take over rather than face the bigger threat, he assumes that the Grey Wardens will open the doors to the Orlesians rather than do their duty.

In fact, Riordan is the perfect evidence against that assumption that the Grey Wardens wouldn't do what they need to do. One guy? And what does he do? He leaps off a damn building and cripples the hell out of the Archdemon.

I'm not saying he would've stayed like our little band did to recruit the different races, but it didn't look like he was running either.

So frankly, no, I think Loghain's actions prevented any sort of moving forward. And you want some motivation for why they may have had tenuous ties with the Orlesians? Maybe its because the Ferelden Patriot was still the guard dog and incredibly influential advisor to the King.

If there were assassination attempts that Loghain prevented he probably had a reason... y'know such as needing a King. By doing nothing Loghain single handedly let Ferelden fall back into his own interpretation of the dark ages and thus put a non-charismatic, overly tyrannical and paranoid leader in the hands of his country. Which is weaker than what they had.
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Sigs are for noobs
#12lenmuttPosted 12/4/2012 10:11:13 AM
you know what this really effects TC?

Darkspawn chronicles!


you defeated Alistair and the gang, but now that you brought it up and I recently played the end game and recall Riodan saying what you said.


this mean your job as a Darkspawn Vanguard is far from over


we could still Destroy Orlais‎, the Tevinter Imperium, Antiva and Par Vollen! >:D
#13some09guy IIPosted 12/4/2012 4:53:52 PM
Flare_Dragon123 posted...
Look all of that stuff is very easy to say. And its easy to quote the stuff written outside of the game.


Most of it is inside the game, then given greater context in the books or dev quotes.

Loghain never provides any context outside of the previous Orlesian war.


There shouldn't have to be, if you actually think a little bit about it. Everyone from Ferelden who is 20+ years old lived through Orlesian occupation and the civil war which ended it. It was not a pretty war, and that is made clear in the game. It took quite a lot to oust them. It was also not a standing fight, but a war of attrition - the Ferelden rebels spent most of the war forced into hiding to keep from being slaughtered. This is also stated in the game.

He doesn't mention assassinations,


The books, released prior to the game, do.

he doesn't mention the size of the darkspawn army (no one knows the size of the darkspawn army, except perhaps Grey Wardens)


I mentioned the size of their army. You see it in the game. It is so large it stretches into the distance and over the horizon.

The problem is he CANNOT KNOW anything, he observes and assumes that the Orlesians will try to take over rather than face the bigger threat,


He assumes correctly, as it turns out. They were attempting a takeover before the war began, as RtO shows.

In fact, Riordan is the perfect evidence against that assumption that the Grey Wardens wouldn't do what they need to do. One guy? And what does he do? He leaps off a damn building and cripples the hell out of the Archdemon.

First, you assume the Wardens would have remained. Second, you assume the Wardens were the only thing he kept out.

So frankly, no, I think Loghain's actions prevented any sort of moving forward. And you want some motivation for why they may have had tenuous ties with the Orlesians? Maybe its because the Ferelden Patriot was still the guard dog and incredibly influential advisor to the King.

If there were assassination attempts that Loghain prevented he probably had a reason... y'know such as needing a King. By doing nothing Loghain single handedly let Ferelden fall back into his own interpretation of the dark ages and thus put a non-charismatic, overly tyrannical and paranoid leader in the hands of his country. Which is weaker than what they had.


Cailan was literally about to sign away his own country and begin a civil war which would have decimated Ferelden. As is stated within the games, more specifically Return to Ostagar.
#14UnfairRepresent(Topic Creator)Posted 12/10/2012 9:47:14 PM
It's true that the more you pay attention the more reasonable Loghain is and the more idiotic Calin is
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^ Hey now that's completely unfair!
http://i.imgur.com/6kfGg.jpg
#15lenmuttPosted 12/10/2012 10:13:19 PM
UnfairRepresent posted...
It's true that the more you pay attention the more reasonable Loghain is and the more idiotic Calin is


poor king Cailan gets a rougher rep then he deserves :/

I like logain but a good general would have been much more adamant about how he felt about the battle plan not just abandoning his men when signaled for help!

also some things to consider
Cailan ruled for five years of peace
he lived in his fathers shadow
He barley governed letting Anora handle most of that
Ostagar was Cailan's opportunity to perhaps break free of his father shadow but instead his general/Father in law left him for dead...

"King Something the Forgotten's Armor".... Oh bioware that's just mean :(
#16UnfairRepresent(Topic Creator)Posted 12/30/2012 4:48:05 AM
lenmutt posted...
UnfairRepresent posted...
It's true that the more you pay attention the more reasonable Loghain is and the more idiotic Calin is


poor king Cailan gets a rougher rep then he deserves :/


no
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^ Hey now that's completely unfair!
http://i.imgur.com/6kfGg.jpg
#17lenmuttPosted 12/30/2012 8:39:06 AM
UnfairRepresent posted...
lenmutt posted...
UnfairRepresent posted...
It's true that the more you pay attention the more reasonable Loghain is and the more idiotic Calin is


poor king Cailan gets a rougher rep then he deserves :/


no


yes ^_^
#18spacehartPosted 1/16/2013 9:57:39 PM
someone mentioned that the destruction of orzammar would also destroy the templar order. That's not a good argument for me. The templars can suck it
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"Is it still considered friendly fire if I hate you?-Bullseye
#19some09guy IIPosted 1/19/2013 5:03:27 PM
spacehart posted...
someone mentioned that the destruction of orzammar would also destroy the templar order. That's not a good argument for me. The templars can suck it


More the fool you, then, mage-lover.
#20UnfairRepresent(Topic Creator)Posted 1/20/2013 9:14:43 AM
some09guy II posted...
spacehart posted...
someone mentioned that the destruction of orzammar would also destroy the templar order. That's not a good argument for me. The templars can suck it


More the fool you, then, mage-lover.


I'd love mages all night long if they all looked like Morrigan and Merril
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^ Hey now that's completely unfair.