Jedi Guardian - Vigilance vs Focus?

#1ssjflintPosted 12/9/2011 11:04:09 PM
I mainly want to PvP, but I can't decide over Vigilance or Focus. Focus seems to do more raw burst DPS, but it can be CC'ed easily. Vigilance seems to give you more moves to play with.

Also, what does overhead slash look like? It's not that silly looking flip is it?

I hope Jedi get some masks/helms eventually when the hood up and helmet on option is available after beta. Be neat to look like Revan or something.
#2SepherinPosted 12/9/2011 11:17:40 PM
Focus is higher burst with on-demand 3k force sweep crits, a top tier talent that is a slow, an additional gap closer...really points to pvp. On the other hand, vigilance has much higher defensive abilities, better focus generation, and higher steadied damage. The problem with vigilance pvp is it has the most complex damage rotation of any class I have played. You really have to focus on keeping dots up, ordering.skills to ready auto-crits, and managing cooldowns. It doesn't even have a dps rotation so much as a priority system. Great for pve, but hard for pvp...though you can cheese killing blows with auto-crit dispatch. If they are a healer you can forget about killing them or their friend.
So, best pvp bet is focus...defense is great as well, but it sounds like you want damage.
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#3ssjflint(Topic Creator)Posted 12/9/2011 11:45:53 PM
Here's the focus build I was looking at: http://www.torhead.com/calculator/skill#500cZhMbZhMRrdbRdGR.1

My primary concerned was getting CC'ed after the zealous leap. I guess it's a more simple system though.
#4SepherinPosted 12/10/2011 3:15:17 AM
I can look at the build after work (phone doesn't let me see skill trees). That is the big downfall of focus, you are going to eat some cc. Luckily you have a spammable slow, and a cc breaker ( though on a cooldown)
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#5nothv13Posted 12/10/2011 3:29:38 AM

From: Sepherin | #002
Focus is higher burst with on-demand 3k force sweep crits, a top tier talent that is a slow, an additional gap closer...really points to pvp. On the other hand, vigilance has much higher defensive abilities, better focus generation, and higher steadied damage. The problem with vigilance pvp is it has the most complex damage rotation of any class I have played. You really have to focus on keeping dots up, ordering.skills to ready auto-crits, and managing cooldowns. It doesn't even have a dps rotation so much as a priority system. Great for pve, but hard for pvp...though you can cheese killing blows with auto-crit dispatch. If they are a healer you can forget about killing them or their friend.
So, best pvp bet is focus...defense is great as well, but it sounds like you want damage.


I wouldn't call rages crit force sweeps "on demand" as to do that damage you have to do two other things before you do the sweep. Other classes can do on demand 3k+ damage since they typically have no set up for it or their set up is off the gcd. It's not AoE but it's so much easier to use and less situational to get the most out of it.

Vigilance rotation, yes it is a rotation is really simple. You always use scream after either plasma brand or overhead strike. Dots only last 6 seconds (outside of plasma brand) so you don't need to pay attention to keep those up as your cooldowns simply aren't short enough. You get the rotation down you will pretty much never have to pay attention to your cooldowns as they will be complete by the time you get back to that skill in the rotation. About the only wrinkle in the rotation is masterstrike. In PvE you use it whenever it is off cooldown *and thus really the only cooldown you have to pay attention to. In PvP you use it when ever the target is stunned in order to get the most out of the attack. It's really a very very simple rotation. Sentinel will drive people made if they think vigilance is a complicated rotation.
#6N0tYrBeezinPosted 12/10/2011 3:58:42 AM

ssjflint posted...
I mainly want to PvP, but I can't decide over Vigilance or Focus. Focus seems to do more raw burst DPS, but it can be CC'ed easily. Vigilance seems to give you more moves to play with.

Also, what does overhead slash look like? It's not that silly looking flip is it?

I hope Jedi get some masks/helms eventually when the hood up and helmet on option is available after beta. Be neat to look like Revan or something.


Unless you have an ugly face, you don't need a mask. Mask is for ugly people! :)

#7SepherinPosted 12/10/2011 5:43:29 AM(edited)
No, I have to disagree...using a rotation in Vigilance "works" but it is in no way optimized. Timing is everything. If you time things right, both dots outside of plasma brand have a 66% uptime, plasma brand a 100% uptime, Force scream after plasma brand or overhead strike IF dispatch isn't available. Also making sure that roughly every 3 global cooldowns you use sunder unless you are focus capped. Master strike on cooldown IF overhead and plasma strike are on cooldown, interrupt it to cast either of the afformentioned.

You can create a rotation...but it looks like (borrowed from XxvQT)
Force leap(3) > Combat Focus(9) > Sundering Strike(12) > Plasma Brand(8) > overhead Slash(5) > Sundering Strike(8) > Master Strike(8) > Sundering Strike(12) > Blade Storm(12) > Slash(9) > Plasma Brand(5) > Overhead Slash(2) > Sundering strike(5) > Strike(7) > Strike(9) > Blade Storm(6) > Sundering Strike(9) > Plasma Brand(5) > Overhead Slash(2) > Sundering Strike(5) ...

and it doesn't account for master strike proc's Opportune strike or Dipatch. Now if you want to say that is easier than a priority system...be my guest. I however prefer

From highest to lowest priority
Pommel Strike
Opportune Strike
Dispatch target under 20% focus > 3
Sundering Strike if focus < 9
Plasma brand if focus > 5
Overhead slash > 4
Master Strike
Blade storm > 4
Strike < 4, combat focus, Sundering strike are on cooldown
Slash focus at 12, next global would be a Sundering Strike

And even here you have to make room for Force sweep (which will actually be a 1 focus generator if you have it talented). So yes, you can make a rotation, but I was talking about maximizing DPS. Even now the system may not be perfect, but I don't get to play with it right now (for instance I don't know exactly how much damage/GCD master strike is doing comparatively to other abilities). The goal is to do the highest possible dps, and not settle for a rotation unless it has the math to back it up.


As for 3k force sweep on demand...yes it does require you to use other abilities. In no way was i promoting running around the map spamming force sweep. However you are going to use those abilities in a pvp situation naturally..you aren't going out of your way to create these crits.
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#8nothv13Posted 12/10/2011 11:25:36 AM

From: Sepherin | #007
No, I have to disagree...using a rotation in Vigilance "works" but it is in no way optimized. Timing is everything. If you time things right, both dots outside of plasma brand have a 66% uptime, plasma brand a 100% uptime, Force scream after plasma brand or overhead strike IF dispatch isn't available. Also making sure that roughly every 3 global cooldowns you use sunder unless you are focus capped. Master strike on cooldown IF overhead and plasma strike are on cooldown, interrupt it to cast either of the afformentioned.

You can create a rotation...but it looks like (borrowed from XxvQT)
Force leap(3) > Combat Focus(9) > Sundering Strike(12) > Plasma Brand(8) > overhead Slash(5) > Sundering Strike(8) > Master Strike(8) > Sundering Strike(12) > Blade Storm(12) > Slash(9) > Plasma Brand(5) > Overhead Slash(2) > Sundering strike(5) > Strike(7) > Strike(9) > Blade Storm(6) > Sundering Strike(9) > Plasma Brand(5) > Overhead Slash(2) > Sundering Strike(5) ...

and it doesn't account for master strike proc's Opportune strike or Dipatch. Now if you want to say that is easier than a priority system...be my guest. I however prefer

From highest to lowest priority
Pommel Strike
Opportune Strike
Dispatch target under 20% focus > 3
Sundering Strike if focus < 9
Plasma brand if focus > 5
Overhead slash > 4
Master Strike
Blade storm > 4
Strike < 4, combat focus, Sundering strike are on cooldown
Slash focus at 12, next global would be a Sundering Strike

And even here you have to make room for Force sweep (which will actually be a 1 focus generator if you have it talented). So yes, you can make a rotation, but I was talking about maximizing DPS. Even now the system may not be perfect, but I don't get to play with it right now (for instance I don't know exactly how much damage/GCD master strike is doing comparatively to other abilities). The goal is to do the highest possible dps, and not settle for a rotation unless it has the math to back it up.


As for 3k force sweep on demand...yes it does require you to use other abilities. In no way was i promoting running around the map spamming force sweep. However you are going to use those abilities in a pvp situation naturally..you aren't going out of your way to create these crits.


You can replace force scream with dispatch thus dispatch does not change the rotation. You use master strike anytime it is off cooldown as it costs no focus and is easily our hardest hitting attack (even though it takes up 2 GCDs). Pommel strike is crap as we have no stuns to use it with on strong targets. Opportune is meh as well as you have to fit in your snare somewhere which will likely throw off your ability to use your skills on cooldown and thus keep that 66% uptime (both pommel and opportune can't b used on above strongs or in pvp making them useless in even most group content). Quite literally a rotation can have a 66% uptime on the dots as you should be using the attacks right as they come off cooldown and still maximize your dps. It's one of the simplest things in this game. Seriously you should had try to play a watchman Sentinel. that has the most complex and hair pulling priority system in the game. Also, you should never ever use slash as one of your other abilities should be off cooldown for use. You can literally remove it from your bars.

The dots in vigilance also suck. They are weak, scale horribly, and have no synergy within the tree. They are quite literally tacked on.
#9ssjflint(Topic Creator)Posted 12/10/2011 11:37:58 AM
I'm pretty much a fan of focus after all that, heh.
#10SepherinPosted 12/10/2011 11:58:47 AM
Master strike is also channeled, so you can't just put it in there any time. If you are mobile or about to be it is useless. As for the DoTs being bad...yea, however they do increase damage, though I think they should have made the damage based on the actual damage of the move prior (say 20% of the damage of overhead. If you replace "force scream" (found a sith!!!) with dispatch you are going to be missing out since overhead and plasma can both be used, so you will add it (just bump it down in priority).

I am sure sentinel is rough, but I never tried it. I don't like the whole twin sabers look and I worry that a pure melee class isn't going to be first (or second, or third,or last) pick for groups (it is sad, but most fights aren't melee friendly..so I plan on tanking on my guardian in the end)

Either way I can 100% guarantee you that both guardian and sentinel are more complex (by a vast margin) than any consular/trooper rotation. The whole reason I was turned off of trooper was because I realized I could literally use 4 buttons while standing still to maximize my potential.
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