Confirm/Deny 1: Morgana is a bad champion

#1cosmicatPosted 12/13/2009 8:43:09 PM
I left out "day" because I'm not sure how reliably I'll post these. My plan is to post one of these each day, each with a different hero type than the last, a la LotA board C/D topics. I'll also try to pick one from the set of free heroes for the week. Feel free to nominate choices for the next round(s), since decision-making really isn't my forte.

To clarify, a "confirm" indicates that you think the hero in question is bad; whether this is because of design issues or balance problems or whatever is up to you to explain.

Starting with a carry like Master Yi would likely yield far too predictable results, so I'm starting us off with support. What do you think of Morgana, the evil queen of support?

My thoughts:
Actually, now that I'm writing up my own vote, I'm beginning to reconsider nominating Morgana. Her disable looks great on paper, but both that and her ultimate ability are rendered useless by Cleanse, and her shield can easily be broken by any nuke provided the enemy's AP is at least as high as Morgana's. Which really doesn't take much considering how badly Morgana farms. Physical-damage heroes like Master Yi and Gangplank have nothing to fear from her, and allies with either Cleanse or something like it (Gangplank again, and of course Alistair) get little benefit from her shield (though Alistair does have a nasty combo with snares). Overall, though, too many heroes can simply ignore her shield, block or remove her snare, and laugh at her feeble AoE damage. Confirm.

Devil's Advocate: Morgana's shield is easily one of the best friendly buffs available, and it goes a long way toward making allied champions who would otherwise be the primary target much more durable. She can be great when paired with someone like Twitch or Jax, or really anyone who can destroy an entire team when allowed to attack with impunity. Her disable moves pretty quickly, lasts a long time, and despite being a "skill shot" by the standards of LoL abilities, isn't that difficult to hit people with (your mileage may vary). To top it off, she has two very high-damage area-of-effect abilities, each with slightly better than one-to-one AP damage boosts when you look at total damage inflicted. In the right hands, she can make an otherwise mediocre team slightly above average, and a great team even better.
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#2FullMetal_MarioPosted 12/13/2009 10:57:08 PM
I need to say deny, she was my 1st hero i was good at. the shackle is evil if you can land it, hits people in fog/bushes, and invisible heros like all skillshots. aoe can become a decent farm tool past lvl7 which admittedly doesnt do too much for her. shield is an awesome preemptive debuff canceler, rocket grab, all slow ranged spells like concussion or cleaver, and if they have a teemo, shroom hunting. ult is a little lacking, but in the chaos of a team battle, hopefully you can get part two off before you die and stun everything giving your team the win. another neat thing it can be used for is invisible hero detection, as you can use it on eve or twitch if they are in range, see where they are because of the leash and shackle/aoe on top of them, and since they are usually squishy, kill them while they are invisible, or at least cause them to run and never try to gank you again.
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#3anilEhilatedPosted 12/14/2009 3:29:42 AM
I don't really think that "being dispelled by Cleanse" is much of an argument against her; for one thing, Cleanse stops any disable dead in its tracks, another, it won't always be up. Otherwise, she's definitely at least solid. Black shield is annoying as hell, her snare does ridiculous damage, and she's got a neat farming skill in corrupted soil. Ult which can potentially turn team battles around is just icing on the cake.
Deny.
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#4Jeev-Posted 12/14/2009 4:34:50 AM
Played a game today where the Morgana in my team ended with about 9/1/7 or something...
Never tried her myself though....
#5VoidgolemPosted 12/14/2009 11:35:56 AM
She's easily the most annoying non-stealth hero in the game.

...unless you pack Cleanse, in which case she's just about a free kill w/o teammates.
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#6cosmicat(Topic Creator)Posted 12/14/2009 4:16:17 PM
Cleanse doesn't have a very long cooldown, and most other champs have a source of damage or AoE disable that isn't completely negated by Cleanse. I do think it stands in her way substantially more than other champs, because from what I've seen Morgana is extremely dependent on her spells. Her ult makes her a primary target in team fights for any competent team, she dies almost instantly to any physical dps champion, if she goes after "tank" items she becomes vulnerable to AP nukers, and she has a tough time farming...well, anything, really, unless she sacrifices early levels in either her shield or her disable.

Now, admittedly, she does well if her opponents happen to be made of the finest silicon - Eve and Twitch are the obvious examples - but personally I think her sister Kayle outdoes her in every respect.

And I'm not just saying this because I've had difficulty doing well with her (though that certainly has been the case); I've only seen a good Morgana once - and it's difficult to judge whether her team won because of her or because of the Master Yi I ended up allied with. In every other game I can think of, Morgana was either mostly irrelevant or entirely irrelevant. For instance, once when I was using Nasus, I could simply Flash to and two-hit the enemy Morgana every time she attempted to snare me. It didn't matter that Black Shield was up because my attacks did so much physical damage. In another game, I was able to do roughly the same thing with Veigar. Yes, Veigar, because any one of his nukes breaks Black Shield instantly. Event Horizon works pretty well when Black Shield doesn't.

Come to think of it, Expunge breaks Black Shield instantly, too, so I might have to reconsider the idea that Morgana can at least beat Twitch.
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#7simcowkingPosted 12/14/2009 10:45:12 PM
Congratulations above poster. You just stated that a great support hero can't solo. Other support characters that stand very little chance if hit by someone who can stun/silence/fear....

Soraka
Heim
Jan
Zilean


They'll all useless cause if you cleanse away from zilean's slow, jans slow, heims slow (rylai's scepter), or just get the jump on soraka... yeah. Here's a good piece of advice:

Support classes should never be trying to solo a lane once ganking has started EVER. Support classes do just that and support. If all enemy heroes are accounted for and you feel safe soloing, You are supporting very poorly.

Morg using her ult at the start of a team fight... guarantee's the enemies to blow their cleanse right away OR flee which causes them to separate a little. Or if for some odd reason someone didn't bring cleanse (cause thats illegal to not bring a cleanse now) they're guaranteed to have a stun on them. Then of course in 2 seconds, you'll have a snare for the slowest hero if they all brought a cleanse.

Learn to support before you say support classes are useless >_<

Also: Morg is a bad champion as long as they believe in teamwork. They're not a carry, so they can't challenge a yi one on one late game. (early game, morg has a pretty good shot at keeping a yi from being farmed. (Snare + soil = yi scared to try for last hits for chance of death by the sudden gank that will happen if he is hit in the snare with less than 3/4th health.



On a side note: I've played morg once, didn't like her style of support (stunning/snaring was never what I liked, although in combination its deadly as I've seen it played very well) I prefer my support characters to be those with all of thie skills being support skills (soraka, jan, alistar). Morgs advantage over these heroes are the ability to have a better farming skill. (jan's skill is too slow of charging to get last hits, but the built in stun is great for stopping ults that require charging, soraka's skill skill takes a lot of mana to spam early for last hits, and drops slowly and his attack speed is quite slow, alistar has even slower attack speed than soraka it feels like, oh and he's melee)

Morg will outfarm the pure support classes, so she'll have a lot better of items so she'll be stronger with the items build easily, so can tank better than jan/soraka (obviously not alistar)

Morg = Average Champion, which is perfect cause average means balanced which means not very many buffs coming her way or nerfs. (maybe buffs if they keep buffing up heroes that are looking for nerfs) >_<
#8starrkPosted 12/15/2009 12:32:41 AM
Deny.
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#9TulkiPosted 12/15/2009 10:27:27 PM
Huh? Soraka has excellent survivability. You're crazy!
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#10simcowkingPosted 12/16/2009 3:00:31 AM
Yeah soraka does. But if she is silenced or stunned, her survivability drops dramatically (no global 600 heal, or instant heal + armor or silence of her own). The point was if you are a support class and you lose your ability to... support, you're useless for the most part >_< (less you bought a lot of aura items for the team fights, but with the nerf of aegis, i buy leviathan to make up for it. Loads of assists all game, so -15% damage on myself is great to survive early and then I can buy a lot of auras and have them last 15% longer xD


But still, without her skills in a fight soraka is useless is what I was going for >__>