New Black Cleaver is garbage

#11Rookie_JetPosted 11/7/2012 11:00:55 PM
Azezo posted...
Rookie_Jet posted...
WW anyone?


pointless WW Q and R are magic and therefore don't apply the stacks.


R applies on hit which is why wits is one his best items. Initiating a gank with r means almost instant full stacks of shred.
#12centurion911Posted 11/7/2012 11:02:13 PM
Rookie_Jet posted...
Azezo posted...
Rookie_Jet posted...
WW anyone?


pointless WW Q and R are magic and therefore don't apply the stacks.


R applies on hit which is why wits is one his best items. Initiating a gank with r means almost instant full stacks of shred.


No, because it needs to be PHYSICAL damage, on hit makes no difference on this item.
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#13chaoshadouPosted 11/7/2012 11:04:12 PM
FatherRussia posted...
For reference

New:
+45 AD
+10 ArPen
+10% CDR
5% armor shred for 6s, stacks up to six times.

Old:
+55 AD
+30% AS
15 Arpen shred stacks up to 3 times

The new version is terrible, the old version was a just below viable first big buy for ADCs if you want to stomp mid game (helps to force the ~25 minute surrender if you have a lead) as it is really the best AD/AS combined option out there.

And they changed it so it is a worse yommu's GB, they backloaded the damage waaaaaaaay too much for an AD caster to use.

MAYBE Garen can use it since his judgement would stack it fast, but Talon, Renekton, Panth etc. would never buy this. It will take them way too long to stack up that Armor shred, they might as well not even have the shred on there.

Unless this is like a 2300g item they might as well just not put it in.

I guess you can do a gimmick Olaf build with BC/LW+his ult's passive to get ~55+75% Arpen after your runes and masteries... but come on, this item was already bad they didn't need to nerf it to the ground.


What.

Wukongs ult, stacks it incredibly fast, not to mention his E gives him a large attack speed buff so he can stack it faster, combined with his q for massive armor shred.

Talon's W gives at least 2 stacks, and if his Q's bleed applies then that's all you'll need to fully stack it.

Pantheon can spam Q, seeing as how the debuff lasts for 6 seconds, jump on your face and apply 3 more stacks with HSS.

Renekton would love this as a fury charged RP is 3 stacks+ a stun, not to mention he probably hit you with at least one hit of Slice and Dice on his way in.
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#14nyhustler208Posted 11/7/2012 11:25:46 PM
my wukong is gonna love this item
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#15Hyper InfernoPosted 11/7/2012 11:30:23 PM
Also important, it's an upgrade from Brutalizer, so you can ease into the armor pen with some during early laning.
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#16BurnumMasterPosted 11/8/2012 12:23:48 AM
FatherRussia posted...
For reference

New:
+45 AD
+10 ArPen
+10% CDR
5% armor shred for 6s, stacks up to six times.

Old:
+55 AD
+30% AS
15 Arpen shred stacks up to 3 times

The new version is terrible, the old version was a just below viable first big buy for ADCs if you want to stomp mid game (helps to force the ~25 minute surrender if you have a lead) as it is really the best AD/AS combined option out there.

And they changed it so it is a worse yommu's GB, they backloaded the damage waaaaaaaay too much for an AD caster to use.

MAYBE Garen can use it since his judgement would stack it fast, but Talon, Renekton, Panth etc. would never buy this. It will take them way too long to stack up that Armor shred, they might as well not even have the shred on there.

Unless this is like a 2300g item they might as well just not put it in.

I guess you can do a gimmick Olaf build with BC/LW+his ult's passive to get ~55+75% Arpen after your runes and masteries... but come on, this item was already bad they didn't need to nerf it to the ground.


I really dont understand how you think it is going to be bad. In season 3 % pen is going to be calculated first and then flat armor pen. This item not only gives 25% pen but also gives the brutalizer flat pen as well. So more armor reduction than the old one. The current black cleaver applies on auto attacks and on hit effect spells. This new one will apply not only on auto attacks but on physical damage spells so you will stack it just as fast if not faster depending on the champ. On top of that you get the cooldown reduction. This new one is better overall for ad casters, since they dont use attack speed as much.
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#17Gobstoppers12Posted 11/8/2012 12:33:24 AM
I'll miss the attack speed on the old one, but the new one will actually be used beyond a cheesy attempt at a mid-game advantage.
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#18fi3rcedragonPosted 11/8/2012 12:38:31 AM
I still think Haunting Guise needs an upgrade path.

Maybe it can upgrade into Void Staff or something.
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#19Rising ChaosPosted 11/8/2012 1:00:01 AM
Black Cleaver wasn't actually a good rush item, hardly does any more damage over IE-BT rush since the AD difference is so large when you otherwise have such little AD. Then PD should clearly come second so Cleaver is only useful as a third item at best if nobody has bought Armor for whatever reason. Even low levels of added Armor will make a second PD more worthwhile, or the other of IE/BT, and of course lots of Armor pushes you to Last Whisper.

Pending its final stats and new cost, of course, the new version at least has potential since it procs on abilities. It's particularly cool with AoE and DoT effects.
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#20SlaynPosted 11/8/2012 1:17:01 AM
Core on Riven, stack dat arm shred with QQQ?