Who's to blame in this vid?

#51JiminyTheDingoPosted 11/9/2012 10:07:22 AM
From: happyscrub1 | #041
MTRDrunkard posted...
The reason why this happened is because Soraka ran through the jungle and got attacked, Graves thought he had to react to the situation.

If Soraka just stayed in lane with Graves at the start none of this would have happened.


We were way a head. I ran into fiddle purposely. I saw him go into that bush. I wanted him out of that bush or force a fight. I did exactly as a I planned in the beginning.

Everything was made up after he deciced to run thru river, that's when I saw skarner and fiddle running to that point where everyone loves to flash to.

You've stated before that you wanted to silence Fiddlesticks so that he couldn't flash over the wall. You did that, but then you stayed on him as if Mordekaiser and Skarner needed your damage output to finish him off. Why not turn back to help Graves when you knew he had made mistakes and was in an unfavorable situation? Yeah, he made several mistakes (blowing all his cooldowns on Fiddle, leading Ezreal away from your team, trying to win a 1v1 engagement with Ezreal using only his auto-attacks), but you could have made a difference. You had your ult up, you weren't that far away when you silenced Fiddle... Even if you didn't save Graves, you could have kept him alive long enough for him to do enough damage (and seeing that someone was actually there to do something, he probably would have used his ult. With his team too far away to do anything, it would have been wasted - the distance was a mistake on his part though). You most likely would have had enough to finish Ezreal, and you would have had Skarner and Mordekaiser nearby in case Ezreal wanted to turn on you.

Graves made mistakes. Lots of 'em. He is heavily responsible for his death. You're partially responsible for simply leaving him to die when you could have at least secured a kill on Ezreal (and possibly save Ezreal in the process).
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#52SilverNeroBlastPosted 11/9/2012 10:19:59 AM
Don't play the blame game and think about what you could have done better.The facts are,Fiddle wasn't important anymore,Graves died because you weren't there.If Graves lost a 1v1 like that then it's not really his fault that he got outplayed,but it was his fault for underestimating the opponent(this apparently applies to you too,since you thought Ez was gonna lose that one).Both players could have done something better and Graves dying was a team effort,so I'd say it works out fine.
#53hockeydude15Posted 11/9/2012 10:26:29 AM
Soraka is to blame fully there. You should have been able to see mid coming down to help on the fiddle kill to make it a sure thing, you most likely didn't even need to silence fiddle for him to die and then you ditch your adc who was forced into a fight with ez because you were caught out of position. Graves did the correct thing in attacking ez even if he played the whole thing horribly by wasting his buckshot and you did nothing to help him in the duel. Also the fact that you are still auto attacking fiddle when the kill is definitely going to happen just makes me think you are a bad support anyways.
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Yawn
#54End_of_DayPosted 11/9/2012 11:01:41 AM(edited)
SilverNeroBlast posted...
Don't play the blame game and think about what you could have done better.The facts are,Fiddle wasn't important anymore,Graves died because you weren't there.If Graves lost a 1v1 like that then it's not really his fault that he got outplayed,but it was his fault for underestimating the opponent(this apparently applies to you too,since you thought Ez was gonna lose that one).Both players could have done something better and Graves dying was a team effort,so I'd say it works out fine.

Sir, I shake my head to 'Graves dying was a team effort'. I give him all of the credit for that play. I do so because there was something that Graves could have done that would have had much more influence on his fate than anything Soraka could have done.

I also don't hold the belief that Graves underestimated his opponent. It was a simple matter of focusing one champion and then poorly deciding to engage a fight with another champion-and then upon losing after choosing poorly, retreating in the entirely wrong direction.

Analyze the distances carefully and think: would Soraka REALLY have made a difference in that play? Look at how far away she already is and then take into consideration the fact that Graves led Ezreal EVEN FURTHER away from her.

hockeydude15 posted...
you ditch your adc who was forced into a fight with ez because you were caught out of position. Graves did the correct thing in attacking ez even if he played the whole thing horribly by wasting his buckshot and you did nothing to help him in the duel.

Graves could have walked into his smokescreen, stopped and entered /t and he would have been fine. The fact that he died is entirely his own fault. Soraka didn't 'force' him into anything; he panicked after blowing his combo, realizing that he set himself up right next to Ezreal and he ran in the wrong direction. THAT is what Graves did horribly.
Gonna say it again, good supports don't support bad play.
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#55UnderwaterAirPosted 11/9/2012 11:32:10 AM
The lane was being pushed, dragon was gone, tribush was still warded. There was next to no reason for Soraka to go out and ward at that moment. If Graves had not responded and pulled Ezreal off I guarantee you that Ezreal would've gotten the kill on Soraka. Fiddlesticks probably would've died but that's a kill to their carry on a pushed lane and that's completely fine for him.

Yes, Graves should have continued upwards towards Soraka. But why are you trying to analyze wrong move number 4 when the correction needs to be done at wrong move number 1 (which was the Soraka being out there in the first place).

Normally, it would be okay to go ward that, but the problem was that dragon is already gone and a HUGE minion wave was pushing in. Soraka made the wrong move by moving out. It was further compounded by that being spotted and the enemy team moving in.

Stay and clear the minion wave first, then once you have pushed the lane back both Soraka and Graves can move out to drop a ward and swing back down to lane without missing a single CS and being safer overall.

First wrong move was from the Soraka. Whatever the Graves did afterwards cannot be counted. Now if Soraka did all the right moves and Graves died after that in lane? Yeah, completely Graves' fault. Soraka did the wrong move by going out in that situation. Graves did what he could to cover and got eaten alive by Ezreal for it. Could Graves had survived that? Maybe, but again, like I said before, why are you trying to talk about wrong move number 4 when wrong move number 1 was the catalyst for it all?

==========

And like I said. I have laned with MANY supports that do stupid things like this before. We have a huge minion disadvantage at level 4. He goes right in, stuns in the middle of all the minions, and then starts getting focused by all the minions and the support and carry. He runs away. What I could do is just sit back and continue farming and let him die for his stupidity. There is a SMALL chance that he may get away. But if he gets away with 10% hp he will rage and whine in solo queue about how I'm a bad ADC and I didn't back him up when he threw in a perfect stun and whatever else and now he won't even heal me, he won't initiate when kills can happen, when I get zoned he just goes back instead. But, seeing as how he's all in already if I choose to initiate we might be able to turn this around and get a kill out of it. I'm okay with that. So I choose to go in. As soon as I go in he turns around and runs into the bushes. All the minions now start focusing me and support and carry takes me down while he runs away with 20% hp and starts talking in chat about how stupid I am.

So, not sure if I'm getting trolled or if the support is just bad. After so many games when good and bad and average supports, I will say that the support's decision was just bad. And after enough games I've learned my lesson. If I have an idiot support I just play the lane like a 1v2 and count only on my jungler. My support can go and feed for all I care.

As the ADC I can guess Graves' thought in that situation:
-gotta try and peel for my stupid support
-yay, it worked, now Soraka needs to come down here and just heal me, drop wish? something?
-*dies*

Instead, Soraka got tunnel visioned onto Fiddlesticks when it was very clear that Fiddles would die now.

TLDR:
-Soraka's fault
-Graves could have done better
-doesn't matter what Graves did or didn't do, Soraka made the wrong decision there and that started the whole chain of events, regardless, you now know that this is a TEAM GAME, if you have one idiot on your team that's how things will turn out, the idiot will make stupid or wrong or fail decisions and either throw the game or in some cases, ends up winning the game because of how stupid the enemies are in responding to it
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#56End_of_DayPosted 11/9/2012 11:58:04 AM
UnderwaterAir

The problem with your argument is the false premise that Soraka baited the Graves into a bad play under the assumption that she mistakenly chose a bad time to ward. The timing wasn't dangerous at all, and without knowing the time on dragon, you can't say that there was no justification for placing a ward there either.

The reason I say that the timing wasn't dangerous is because Skarner was already headed there, Morde was on the way, and most importantly if Ezreal moved in to kill her, Graves would have killed him. Fiddle already blew his silence AND his fear to no effect. Soraka was completely safe. The first wrong move was Graves' over-commitment to Fiddlesticks. What he COULD have done was immediately turn on to Ezreal since Fiddlesticks did LITERALLY NOTHING with his silence and fear. Graves didn't, but at least at that he could have redeemed himself by choosing the next safest place to be. He didn't.

and you know the rest.
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My Hubris is bigger than yours.
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#57ShyvanaPosted 11/9/2012 12:04:54 PM
First of all...

How the EFF did you manage to get LoL Recorder working? The amount of times I uninstalled and re-installed... It just would not work. :|
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didn't america win the civil war? - lunarknight64 (Posted 11/10/2009 3:15:32 PM)
#58End_of_DayPosted 11/9/2012 12:08:41 PM
Shyvana posted...
First of all...

... It just would not work. :|

*hug*
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My Hubris is bigger than yours.
NA - TheWorld7 & Tragedy Baby // PBE - Je Suis
#59UnderwaterAirPosted 11/9/2012 12:19:29 PM
The first wrong move was Graves' over-commitment to Fiddlesticks.

Look at all the minions coming to their tower and tell me why in the hell you would even try to move away from that exp and gold? First wrong move was Soraka moving out on her own with huge lane being pushed at her tower coming into that situation.

And consider the psychological thought process if that Graves had not initiated on Fiddlesticks. Fiddlesticks might have been perfectly happy to turn back and Ezreal + Fiddlesticks focus on Soraka wiping her out and then pulling back to safety of their tower while all Graves could do in that situation is continue auto attacking minions.

I guarantee you if that had happened we'd see a video on here about how Graves was wrong for not coming in to support Soraka when it could've been an easy kill on Ezreal (arguable).

I am ignoring the rest of what you say because as I stated, the only thing we can even begin to analyze here is the first mistake. And the first mistake belongs to Soraka. Just think about all the times you were at bottom and your support goes out on their own to do this kind of warding without properly making sure it's safe or lowering the potential of a counter move first. Lane was pushed, no need to go ward like that. Goes to ward, gets caught. Dies. Why were Fiddlesticks and Ezreal able to move in and pressure like that? Because minion advantage. I mean, consider how bad it would've turned out if that Dragon was not taken yet and Soraka had no vision of that. You know what bottom lanes like to do when they want to setup for a Dragon? Drop their jungler and mid to near dragon, have bottom shove lane, then go get Dragon. If mid and jungler were near the Soraka doing that warding would've looked so stupid going out there to ward and getting insta-killed.

Or how many times you've lost a game because someone wandered off on their own to do something that was completely unnecessary at the moment. Baron already taken two minutes ago. You have next to no map vision on enemy team, your jungler decides it's a good time to just barrel through your jungle to drop a ward in front of Baron. Good freaking job, jungler, get caught and die, now enemy team just shoves 5v4 into your mid tower and wins game.
"ez"

Doing stupid things like that is one of the easiest ways to lose the game. Soraka coming back into lane, tons of minions pushing forward, Oh, I better go ward dragon when Fiddlesticks and Ezreal can freely move up! :D And do note, from the minimap, they had no vision on mid nor enemy jungler either. Would be nice to get the replay so we know if Dragon was known to be missing or not.

The stupidity is compounded when you consider Shen with ult up. It could very very quickly have turned into a 3v5 by dragon that would've decimated the team's morale when Skarner, Soraka, and Graves dies. And then enemy team swings down and rips bottom tower apart being able to take golems and check red and running away to heal again.
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#60SilverNeroBlastPosted 11/9/2012 12:20:44 PM
Soraka
-should have chosen a better time to ward
-should have not ran towards that bush(since it did begin the fight)
-probably would have been better to leave Fiddle alone since he will have to back anyway
-I think Ult was up(granted he was ignited)a timed ult would have saved him,or at least buy him enough time to get to Graves
-should have realized if Fiddle wanted to flash he would have done it sooner

Graves
-Probably should have ran up towards Soraka(they can meet halfway and Graves might have been covered by the bush
-Not have used smoke screen
-Graves should have made better descisions and not engaged since Soraka wasn't in any real danger.
-Chose to run out in the open against a champ that can literally poke people to death.
-Auto attacked Ez during Ult.

Someone should have timed Fiddle's Flash if it was seen.

Now we have a lot of reasons why Graves died.No one is perfect and people make mistakes like this in every game.Both Graves and Soraka took the risk and knew what would happen if they messed up,so the result was justified.No single person is at fault.Heck it looks like Shen could have ulted down sooner if he wanted to.Fiddle should have ran to Ez if he didn't have flash(unless baiting you away was his plan the whole time)