Why is Athene's core on some casters but not others?

#21MlREFOXPosted 11/14/2012 9:19:12 AM
I think you will find Athene's used most often on very mana-hungry champs. But Athene's is only an afterthought - Chalice is the key.

Chalice now actually builds into something useful, so mana-hungry champs aren't afraid to build an early Chalice now. Most champs will then move on to other items, though, and come back to finish Athene's later.
#22necroix05Posted 11/14/2012 9:21:42 AM
Some champions are only a little thirsty, so all they have to get is the Thirsty Cup.

Other champions are looking to recharge and refuel, so they need the Red Thirsty Cup, because the red color comes from all the electrolytes and nutrients that are in the drink.

Hope that answers your question.
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#23RaytheRulerPosted 11/14/2012 9:38:02 AM
Athene's is valuable on champs that need to spam to be effective.

Orianna is constantly using her abilities to farm and harass but most importantly she has major mana issues. Rushing Athene's or RoA is essential on Ori to keep up the spam and never run out. If you rush Rabadon's on Ori, you'll hurt them if you hit but you'll be outta mana in a couple creep waves. Its more valuable to get the mana regen so you can farm forever and harass forever (until you can kill them). Syndra is in the same category; she needs cdr and a ton of mana regen to farm and kill effectively. Now Zyra, is not in the syndra/ori boat; her costs aren't high enough that you can't sustain your mana with 2x Rings and runes. Zyra also passively gains CDR from her W so Athene's right out the bat really doesn't do anything for Zyra; its a good later game item once you have your Rabadon's and Void Staff though.

Each mid is a bit different and thus require slightly (if not entirely) unique builds. It also comes down to personal preference in some cases.
#24AlastreonPosted 11/14/2012 9:47:06 AM
_HeX posted...
Alastreon posted...
Shuriko posted...
From: narutofan72 | #007
WaterKnight posted...
I'm trying to learn AP mid and I've been trying to watch some pro players to get an idea on builds etc.

Orianna, Syndra, and Zyra almost always build Athene's as their first item. Then I see people playing champions such as Cass, Xerath, Ahri and they go straight for a Rabbadon's.

How do I determine whether Athene's is core or not? From what I can see most AP mids need blue to use their spells for a significant length of time and the latter champions I listed are no better at mana management than the former, except maybe Cass.


It's not really "core" on a lot of champs. Anivia, Galio, Orianna and Swain are the champs I can think of it being a core item for off the top of my head and this is because of their large mana costs. Ever since the nerf to abyssal though, champions who don't benefit from the passive because of their longer range tend to build chalice for the early Mgen/MR and then just finish it a bit later.


...

if you rush Athene's on Anivia you're doing it wrong

anivia needs durability


Shuriko post
And anivia dosen't need durability what the hell do you think her pasive is for?
Just position well and you shouldn't even lose it.


Going by that logic, no one should ever die. Just position yourself well NP


Yes,exactly
You haven't played anivia before have you?
#25HighUlitmaPosted 11/14/2012 9:49:38 AM
I personally think it depends on base ability damage. If it's high enough, rushing chalice is a good idea.
However, do not delay AP if you can afford it. Many times, I have lost a lane due to delaying AP, whereas the enemy mid did not (most common with the manaless casters). Also, chalice and catalyst at the same time is not a good idea.
#26easymodexzPosted 11/14/2012 10:16:33 AM
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
#27easymodexzPosted 11/14/2012 10:17:55 AM
1. ROA is not core on Anivia. It was until Athene's was added to the game. End of story. It's still a decent item if you position poorly and/or just want the extra buffer. However Athene - Deathcap is simply going to be more effective.

2. You get Athene on champs that use a ton of mana and spend a lot of time casting a sustained barrage of spells during laning, before a timefight, and during a teamfight. and can benefit from extra CDR.

Orianna is a classic example. She has a relatively safe and solid lane harass combo, and good AOE minion clearing -- but she needs a lot of mana to do it. Then she can poke before a team fight, and then execute a team fight. She also spams her spells to check bushes.

Zyra -- no. Zyra is not an obvious Athene's candidate, although it's "OK" for her (Athene is "OK" on basically any AP mid that uses mana).

Cassiopeia -- no, because of two things: (a) her passive allows her some mana efficiency for burst casting, and (b) the special effect on her fang to drop its cooldown. These two things means that she has some stuff that makes up for both CDR and mana. Even though these 2 things are not gigantic huge and Athene could still be used, they still erode the value of Athene to the point of "just get Deathcap instead man".

For Cass (and Zyra), Athene would be more a choice when you are facing an opponent that can push the lane hard (so you need fast clearing with nuke spam), and when you want extra magic resist.

Anivia -- Anivia spams mana everywhere for everything all the time. Athene is perfect.

Note that all the above are [i]sustained casters[/i]. Some champs are more burst casters -- Brand, Kennen (not that mana is relevant for him), Katarina (or her), Annie, Malzahar. These champs are heavily weighted to a single, BIG teamfight combo. Who needs mana regen or CDR when you blow most of your load at once? Get more raw DPS (Deathcap) so your load is even heavier.

Syndra -- Syndra doesn't actually have any of the specific "I USE TONS OF MANA" or "I AM A SUSTAINED CASTER" that the others are characterized by. Instead, Athene's gives a specific combination of capabilities that Syndra can use -- the CDR allows her to drop more balls for her ult. To maintain ball spam, she actually does start using more mana than average. Thus, Athene's ends up being a useful item for Syndra using a backasswards path of logic.
#28FoxDragon13Posted 11/14/2012 10:25:32 AM
There are a few champs that definitely love it.

Ori, Karth, Anvia, Swain can all benefit from rushing it. For all of them, getting 12% of max mana on kill or assist just means they can spam even longer.
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#29ShurikoPosted 11/14/2012 1:14:58 PM
From: easymodexz | #027
1. ROA is not core on Anivia. It was until Athene's was added to the game. End of story. It's still a decent item if you position poorly and/or just want the extra buffer. However Athene - Deathcap is simply going to be more effective


wasn't aware that easymodexz of GameFAQs was a superior Anivia player to Froggen.

Why aren't you in a team man? Wreck those tournaments.
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#30FlameLord23Posted 11/14/2012 1:26:05 PM
necroix05 posted...
Some champions are only a little thirsty, so all they have to get is the Thirsty Cup.

Other champions are looking to recharge and refuel, so they need the Red Thirsty Cup, because the red color comes from all the electrolytes and nutrients that are in the drink.

Hope that answers your question.


Is that a unique passive? The electrolytes?
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