how do you beat nidalee?

#11hare_hare_yukaiPosted 11/19/2012 8:53:55 AM
KeyBladeAce posted...
i started cloth + 5 and


theres your problem. Take bush control and remember you can all in her at all times pre 6, alternatively,you can let her push you to tower and freeze/kill her easy with jungle assistance or push to her tower since nid has some difficulty last hitting under tower pre 6.
#12KagerasuPosted 11/19/2012 10:13:58 AM
KeyBladeAce posted...
no i'm aware that irelia just has to farm and survive and become a machine later on, but at really early levels she would just poke me ALL the time with her auto and its just so frustrating that she can free farm so easy, and she'd just outrun me in bushes after my dash cause i started cloth + 5 and yet she still seems to do so much with her aa..


There are lots of ways to beat her, but you do realize that as early as level 3-4, you can retaliate and beat her senseless right?

If she spam autos you, the wave is naturally pushing up because your minions hit her instead of minions.

How many escapes do you think she has at your tower at level 1-5?

How many traps do you think she can lay down levels 1-5? How much MANA do you think she has if she uses it on cd?

Basically, for every move Nidalee has, champions like Irelia, Jax, Darius, etc all have ways to beat her. It's just not 100% victory (except Irelia if you do it right) and funny enough, the higher rating you go the more likely the jungler knows Nidalee is one of the easiest kills in the game 1-5 when she's pushing you via harassing.

Even Lee Sin can go brick wall against her. Just max W with tabi + dorans + vamp scepter. She can't EVER kill you without a good jungle gank. But I wouldn't recommend Lee Sin because it doesn't net you a big win top lane and you fall off just the same.

If you're good at Olaf axes, I don't even see how you can ever have a problem with Nidalee. She can't stay within bush range all game if she wants to cs, let alone hit you. One catch with an axe on your side of the map is usually a flash or GG since you have GHOST.

Darius is probably the most confusing. Against aggressive Nids, you want to learn to press E fast. Your E range is 25 more range than her auto attack, so learn to use it properly (Varus match ups bot lane is like this).

Jax is like Irelia, except you scale infinitely harder, and have an infinitely superior escape, but lack the level 5-9 power of true damage. What does this mean? Grab a damn vamp scepter before your phage if you're getting your ass kicked. What the hell is Nidalee gonna do to you as you leech everything back up? Warden's mail if you're real behind, because nothing says initiate on Nidalee like the cat getting slowed herself for you.

Jayce has better attack animation/gate and at all times can tell Nid to !@#$ off while having melee initiation far earlier. While I wouldn't say Jayce counters Nidalee, it's not one sided either, and is purely based on skill and builds outside of jungle / team factor.

If you're good with Cho'gath, do I even need to tell you how this works? You laugh at her pitiful damage once you have tabi and farm up.

Most importantly, wards. Your ward is far more important than Nidalee post 6. Why? Because it means you can stay on the river side. What does this mean? It means she can't hit you without coming out of bush range.

I haven't even listed half of the ways you can use to beat her, since I wasted most of this post talking about champion match ups. But let's put it this way. If Riven, the out dated top laner can fight evenly matched against Nidalee, there's no damn way the other top tier top laners don't have their own methods. The way you describe how you get owned by Nidalee doesn't even sound high elo.
#13_HeXPosted 11/19/2012 10:19:51 AM
hare_hare_yukai posted...
KeyBladeAce posted...
i started cloth + 5 and


theres your problem. Take bush control and remember you can all in her at all times pre 6, alternatively,you can let her push you to tower and freeze/kill her easy with jungle assistance or push to her tower since nid has some difficulty last hitting under tower pre 6.


No decent Nidalee player is gonna push the lane pre 6, we know we're squishy and not that mobile until we get cougarform unlocked.
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Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.
#14KagerasuPosted 11/19/2012 10:26:11 AM
_HeX posted...
hare_hare_yukai posted...
KeyBladeAce posted...
i started cloth + 5 and


theres your problem. Take bush control and remember you can all in her at all times pre 6, alternatively,you can let her push you to tower and freeze/kill her easy with jungle assistance or push to her tower since nid has some difficulty last hitting under tower pre 6.


No decent Nidalee player is gonna push the lane pre 6, we know we're squishy and not that mobile until we get cougarform unlocked.


Too bad that's exactly the problem. A lot of champs scale better than you once you've hit 9. At exactly 6 Nidalee is beastly sure, but even then some champions scale better.

Your window of opportunity is small. Effective, but small. Only bad top laners don't get that Nidalee's strongest windows are 6/11/16. The levels specially right before those are when she's insanely weak relative to better scaling champions, let alone end game.

What does this mean for fighting against decent Nidalees? It means 1-5 you don't even give a flying !@#$ about auto attacks, because Nid is too damn scared to auto you enough to even waste 2 pots. Farm away! Unless you picked something stupid like Yorick. Then you're just asking for it since you counter picked yourself. The only champions who can't do this and zone Nid well are guys like Darius, who also lack escapes, but that's because their risk vs reward is much bigger.
#15_HeXPosted 11/19/2012 10:30:57 AM
Kagerasu posted...
_HeX posted...
hare_hare_yukai posted...
KeyBladeAce posted...
i started cloth + 5 and


theres your problem. Take bush control and remember you can all in her at all times pre 6, alternatively,you can let her push you to tower and freeze/kill her easy with jungle assistance or push to her tower since nid has some difficulty last hitting under tower pre 6.


No decent Nidalee player is gonna push the lane pre 6, we know we're squishy and not that mobile until we get cougarform unlocked.


Too bad that's exactly the problem. A lot of champs scale better than you once you've hit 9. At exactly 6 Nidalee is beastly sure, but even then some champions scale better.

Your window of opportunity is small. Effective, but small. Only bad top laners don't get that Nidalee's strongest windows are 6/11/16. The levels specially right before those are when she's insanely weak relative to better scaling champions, let alone end game.

What does this mean for fighting against decent Nidalees? It means 1-5 you don't even give a flying !@#$ about auto attacks, because Nid is too damn scared to auto you enough to even waste 2 pots. Farm away! Unless you picked something stupid like Yorick. Then you're just asking for it since you counter picked yourself. The only champions who can't do this and zone Nid well are guys like Darius, who also lack escapes, but that's because their risk vs reward is much bigger.


That depends on a lot of things, if we're gonna assume equally skilled and neither have gotten any ganks then there is a chance you'll get outscaled but Nidalees biggest strength is her mobility and ability to split push so well. Unless she really gets shut down early on in lane you're not gonna be able to stop a Nidalee with teleport from doing just that.
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Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.
#16DiplomacySCPosted 11/19/2012 10:40:49 AM
_HeX posted...
Kagerasu posted...
_HeX posted...
hare_hare_yukai posted...
KeyBladeAce posted...
i started cloth + 5 and


theres your problem. Take bush control and remember you can all in her at all times pre 6, alternatively,you can let her push you to tower and freeze/kill her easy with jungle assistance or push to her tower since nid has some difficulty last hitting under tower pre 6.


No decent Nidalee player is gonna push the lane pre 6, we know we're squishy and not that mobile until we get cougarform unlocked.


Too bad that's exactly the problem. A lot of champs scale better than you once you've hit 9. At exactly 6 Nidalee is beastly sure, but even then some champions scale better.

Your window of opportunity is small. Effective, but small. Only bad top laners don't get that Nidalee's strongest windows are 6/11/16. The levels specially right before those are when she's insanely weak relative to better scaling champions, let alone end game.

What does this mean for fighting against decent Nidalees? It means 1-5 you don't even give a flying !@#$ about auto attacks, because Nid is too damn scared to auto you enough to even waste 2 pots. Farm away! Unless you picked something stupid like Yorick. Then you're just asking for it since you counter picked yourself. The only champions who can't do this and zone Nid well are guys like Darius, who also lack escapes, but that's because their risk vs reward is much bigger.


That depends on a lot of things, if we're gonna assume equally skilled and neither have gotten any ganks then there is a chance you'll get outscaled but Nidalees biggest strength is her mobility and ability to split push so well. Unless she really gets shut down early on in lane you're not gonna be able to stop a Nidalee with teleport from doing just that.


Nidalee... with teleport?

Run ignite on AD Nidalee please. Probably AP Nidalee too.
#17hare_hare_yukaiPosted 11/19/2012 10:45:34 AM
_HeX posted...
hare_hare_yukai posted...
KeyBladeAce posted...
i started cloth + 5 and


theres your problem. Take bush control and remember you can all in her at all times pre 6, alternatively,you can let her push you to tower and freeze/kill her easy with jungle assistance or push to her tower since nid has some difficulty last hitting under tower pre 6.


No decent Nidalee player is gonna push the lane pre 6, we know we're squishy and not that mobile until we get cougarform unlocked.


I just said it was an alternative irelia can easily beat nid by taking bush control and can easily all in nid pre 6 and post 9 assuming they are at least on equal gold, and if jungler comes up the lane should push to your tower it's all situational.
#18KagerasuPosted 11/20/2012 6:32:12 AM
_HeX posted...
That depends on a lot of things, if we're gonna assume equally skilled and neither have gotten any ganks then there is a chance you'll get outscaled but Nidalees biggest strength is her mobility and ability to split push so well. Unless she really gets shut down early on in lane you're not gonna be able to stop a Nidalee with teleport from doing just that.


Uh what? You seriously don't get it do you? Nidalee isn't a strong 1v1 champ against the top tier top laners straight up. This means that an Irelia with teleport can scale late enough to whoop your ass even if you pack ignite.

You pack teleport, and all you are telling Irelia is you gave up ANY chance to fight her in lane. If she packs Ignite, she can go ultra aggressive with warding, and zone you out super hard. You would be teleport ganking 30 cs down most likely with NO PHAGE, not to mention your tower goes down. If she has ignite and you don't, you can get 2 kills over her from ganks and she'd still whoop your ass.

If Irelia or Jax gets teleport, guess who scales better? It's a no brainer.

Nidalee's best match ups are against AP actually, because she can take advantage of chalice+spirit visage which are dirt cheap. Against Irelia/Jax/etc she has to spend a lot more gold and even sac her tenacity for ninja tabi, which weakens her heavily against CC which is very important later on in team fights (mobility doesn't do !@#$ when you can't move).

Finally, Frozen Mallet is the god item against Nidalee. Once a champion who can outscale you gets it and isn't significantly behind, you lose every fight.

Nidalee isn't weak, I'm not biased against her or defending her, but she's one of the few top lane champions (viable at competitive level) that can lose 100% to Blitzcrank top lane, that alone tells you she is very beatable. The fact that Lee Sin can 100% stalemate with her and scale just as well apart from long distance mobility (and even then he can compete if he has wards and !@#$) tells you you're probably doing it wrong.

She's just rare and not easy to learn, so people who play against her find it very rare to fight against a good one over and over in order to fine tune against her. Calculating how much she can heal with her given mana pool after X amount of traps isn't something most people can do considering people still get heal baited by Silsol at the highest levels.

Oh and finally, she's probably the buggiest champion since her release. And still hasn't had even half her bugs fixed. Tristana's jump bug has NOTHING on Nidalee's constant pounce bug.
#19GrassCatPosted 11/20/2012 6:52:23 AM
[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]