Shaco Late game?

#11Shadow EdgePosted 11/26/2012 2:30:51 AM(edited)
Extremely squishy because he has no kind of skill to shield himself. Other melees have a way to sustain, boost resists, fight against CCs, add a shield, or have maneuverability.

If you build him as a bruiser, he has pretty low damage output because he relies so much on auto-attacks. You can use one box at most in a teamfight.
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ns
#12SirDanieI(Topic Creator)Posted 11/26/2012 2:50:41 AM
Shadow Edge posted...
Extremely squishy because he has no kind of skill to shield himself. Other melees have a way to sustain, boost resists, fight against CCs, add a shield, or have maneuverability.

If you build him as a bruiser, he has pretty low damage output because he relies so much on auto-attacks. You can use one box at most in a teamfight.


One box is a 1.5 second aoe fear which is an amazingly good cc if you can get it off. Amumu has no shields etc. Evelyn has no defensive boosts, she has anti slow but shaco has a blink which is almost always better than a movespeed boost. His ult can be timed to dodge cc/dmg if your good as well as his blink.

He doesn't have low damage as a bruiser/ He has high damage as a bruiser since he has some of the best steroids in the game. Shaco will be building lifesteal almost always lategame so he will have sustain. Guardian angel will prevent focus. He is one of the hardest melees to kite in the game which is also a plus, a factor that prevents late game monsters like AD Sion being op. His ult can do damage when Shaco is in CC.

Compare to Wukong who is considered very good lategame. If you build the same as a normal wukong- He will have approximately 40 more armor and magic resist than you due to his passive at approximately arround 200-240 armor and 180 magic resist compared to your 160-200 armor and 140 magic resist. That will approximate to about a 5 percent difference in percentage reduction. Your fear will do the same amount of cc as his ult in a much lower radius. Your q will match his q. He has a 40 percent AS buff and you have a 75 percent damage steroid. You also have 20 percent increased damage if they are not facing you which is quite likely considering your attacking their squishies. You are harder to kite than wukong. Wukong has 25 percent armor reduction which will help his teammates as well as more AOE damage compared to your superior single target dps. They are quite similar but Wukong is considered a great teamfighter while shaco is said to be a horrible lategame.
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23/11/12 Me: WTF Why do you have 6 boots?
NoobElise: Aren't I a spider?
#13Shadow EdgePosted 11/26/2012 3:16:13 AM(edited)
One box is a 1.5 second aoe fear which is an amazingly good cc if you can get it off.
That's one big if. The range is only 300. It doesn't really have a lot of presence in a teamfight because you don't really see it.

Amumu has no shields etc.
Amumu can afford to build very tanky and still do a good amount of damage. His W is a HP% shred that goes really well with Abyssal and passive. You get a lot of good items for tanky AP. He can stun and ult which shuts off enemy damage output.

Evelyn has no defensive boosts
Evelyn kills 25%+ of everyone's maximum HP (without items) and can gain up to 1500 shield, the biggest in the game, without items either.

He doesn't have low damage as a bruiser/ He has high damage as a bruiser since he has some of the best steroids in the game. Shaco will be building lifesteal almost always lategame so he will have sustain. Guardian angel will prevent focus. He is one of the hardest melees to kite in the game which is also a plus, a factor that prevents late game monsters like AD Sion being op. His ult can do damage when Shaco is in CC.
Problem is that his ult as a steroid gets popped really fast unless you build some beef into him. Q isn't a exactly a steroid and no one will keep their backs against you.

Wukong
- Q has less than half cooldown compared to Shaco's Q and reduces enemy armor by 30% which further increases damage for you and your team
- E, again, lower than any of Shaco's skills and hits multiple enemies and gives him 50% ASPD steroid
- R has much more presence in teamfights and does a lot more damage than Shaco boxes.

It's just Shaco's single-target thing that makes him fall off late game similar to LeBlanc. Single targetting gets relegated to ADCs lategame.

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ns
#14SirDanieI(Topic Creator)Posted 11/26/2012 3:29:34 AM
Shadow Edge posted...
One box is a 1.5 second aoe fear which is an amazingly good cc if you can get it off.
That's one big if. The range is only 300.

Amumu has no shields etc.
Amumu can afford to build very tanky and still do a good amount of damage. His W is a HP% shred that goes really well with Abyssal and passive. You get a lot of good items for tanky AP. He can stun and ult which shuts off enemy damage output.

Evelyn has no defensive boosts
Evelyn kills 25%+ of everyone's maximum HP (without items) and can gain up to 1500 shield, the biggest in the game, without items either.

He doesn't have low damage as a bruiser/ He has high damage as a bruiser since he has some of the best steroids in the game. Shaco will be building lifesteal almost always lategame so he will have sustain. Guardian angel will prevent focus. He is one of the hardest melees to kite in the game which is also a plus, a factor that prevents late game monsters like AD Sion being op. His ult can do damage when Shaco is in CC.
Problem is that his ult as a steroid gets popped really fast unless you build some beef into him. Q isn't a exactly a steroid and no one will keep their backs against you.

Wukong
- Q has less than half of Shaco's Q and reduces enemy armor by 30% which further increases damage for you and your team
- E, again, lower than any of Shaco's skills and hits multiple enemies


In general a 300 range aoe 1.5 second fear is still considered a good cc. The only problem is that if the adc is smart he will kill it.

Really the percentage damage component of his w is the least damaging tool of his kit. His other skills will probably result in higher dps. Late game shaco should be doing a lot higher single target dps while amumu will have aoe dps.

I forgot about evelyn lol. Keep thinking about the old glory days when she had her stun

Yeah but a 75 percent steroid as a bruiser is still higher than most other bruisers steroid in terms of dps. Compared to other steroids Jax's AS buff/ damage per three hits; Shaco should match Jax's dps or be higher. Their apc should be keeping their backs toward you, probably their adc as well.

Shaco's q matches Wukong's Q cause even though it has a higher cooldown It does significantly higher damage as well having stealth which is always useful.

My point still stands In a teamfight with wukong compared to Shaco their both quite similar. Shaco will stealth inside and hit som1 and wukong will charge inside whacking som1 with his q dealing more AOE damage. Wukong will use his ult and start doing high AOE damage as well as knocking them up for 1 second. During those 3 seconds Shaco will put down a box in a clustered area turn on his ult (hopefully doging something) and start whacking somebody doing far higher single target dps (than wukong) as well as slowing them. Wukong will indeed be tankier but not by alot (around 5 percent difference in percentage reduction)
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23/11/12 Me: WTF Why do you have 6 boots?
NoobElise: Aren't I a spider?
#15hare_hare_yukaiPosted 11/26/2012 7:57:45 AM
Shaco has a great late game once he gets a few items. A 6 item shaco is an exceptional duelist, split pusher and assassin. It's his mid game is whats horrible since he to be snowballed or requires a lot of farm to remain relevant.
#16l3lueJACKrabbitPosted 11/26/2012 8:07:58 AM
Shaco's late game is bad, but not as bad as most people make it out to be. If you're building Shaco like a glass cannon, you're doing it wrong. Late game Shaco offers you free wards, a very fast Baron, strong kiting ability (multiple boxes along an escape path), a free exhaust on the ad carry (you'll close the gap better than any support will), and a decent initiate or follow up if you have a Lulu/Ori on your team. Other than his utility late game though (but it's actually a lot, especially if your team is ahead), it's true Shaco doesn't provide the best team fighting.

Shaco works in any ELO:

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/21387006#ranked-stats
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Knicks City
#17SoulknightX0Posted 11/26/2012 8:09:16 AM
If shaco builds tanky he's not doing damage, if wukong builds tanky, he can still do damage.

If shaco builds damage, he's getting blown up the moment his blink is off cd
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#18BuIzeebPosted 11/26/2012 12:49:56 PM
In general melee champs that rely on their spells for damage are stronger than those that rely on their AA's for damage, because AA power requires several damage items to scale effectively, whereas abilities have generally high base damage.

Wukong deals tons of AOE damage by building very little damage, he only really needs some arpen and maybe a little AD. Stop trying to compare Shaco to tanks and bruisers, he doesn't share the same role that they do, as he's an assassin, and one with a fairly weak late game at that. Other assassins are stronger in team fights because they offer burst, which allows them to kill critical targets before being focused.
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#19SirDanieI(Topic Creator)Posted 11/26/2012 3:09:31 PM
BuIzeeb posted...
In general melee champs that rely on their spells for damage are stronger than those that rely on their AA's for damage, because AA power requires several damage items to scale effectively, whereas abilities have generally high base damage.

Wukong deals tons of AOE damage by building very little damage, he only really needs some arpen and maybe a little AD. Stop trying to compare Shaco to tanks and bruisers, he doesn't share the same role that they do, as he's an assassin, and one with a fairly weak late game at that. Other assassins are stronger in team fights because they offer burst, which allows them to kill critical targets before being focused.


SO basically your saying since shaco doesn't have aoe damage he is worse late game. Ok but my point still stands that he is a great duelist/ single target dps late game even if he builds bruiser. Assasins can build tanky if they want (Irelia) and do damage.
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23/11/12 Me: WTF Why do you have 6 boots?
NoobElise: Aren't I a spider?
#20The_WeegeePosted 11/26/2012 3:11:28 PM
TAPS SHACO IS GREAT LATE GAME.
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I take the obvious presence of a condom over imagined symbolism involving buns to determine my stance on that kind of thing any time.-Erpy