I don't understand why people say denying makes no sense

#21OximofoPosted 11/26/2012 9:54:12 AM(edited)
ReadOnlyAccnt posted...
Well I was going for ingame logic not out of game real life logic. If you want to play that game.

Killing things in real life dont grant exp or and you don't level up. they also do not drop gold. so bam.

And yeah I guess it could be considered team killing but its a game not a philosophical venture.

I see denying as adding another cool form of lane control besides both of you just sitting there idly farming until one has enough gold to buy some great item. Im aware of "zoning" but that seems like a pretty shallow tactic


You actually become far more efficient at hunter the more you hunt. Also they drop meat and items that can be sold/collected/consumed.

Soo? Bam.

Also like someone else has posted. It's probably the most overrated mechanic in Dota. It's one of the few not hard/archaic mechanic, but riot doesn't like. That lol doesn't have. So people keep bring it up. Really in all the watch games I've seen. They deny very little. Only bots are even remotely efficient at it.
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#22Sythstrife99Posted 11/26/2012 9:53:52 AM
denying doesnt make sense lore wise! those beginner summoners have to get practice! if we start denying then people will just feed constantly...oh wait...
#23Ephemeral1Posted 11/26/2012 9:55:09 AM
Vince40 posted...
MlREFOX posted...
It makes sense, but that doesn't make it a necessary mechanic. Dota suffers from an overabundance of unwieldy mechanics straight out of the year 2000 and will never be as competitive as LoL for it.


Lane control is not bad. That adds more strategy to a strategic moba. How you can't grasp that or why you hate strategy is beyond me.

Also to the person that doesn't like to compete for creeps. Don't touch a single creep all game, just go for kills please. No creeps at all. Lets me know how you do.


You're misconstruing my point. Farming may be a necessary element of the game, but it is not a particularly entertaining one. If I just wanted to click on things all day and not interact with other people I'd play solitaire. Implementing creep denial would only add another layer of mundane strategy to an already mundane task. No thanks.
#24seabasstianPosted 11/26/2012 9:56:16 AM
Holy_Serpent posted...
Removing denying creates more interaction with enemies in lane, making the game more aggressive.

Because now you can't just kill their minions from a distance to stop someone from farming. You're forced to fight and punish someone whenever they try to kill a creep, essentially "denying" through battle instead of just farming your own creep.

Denying gives the game a longer laning phase and makes the game stagnant.


Incorrect. Denying is simply another part of the laning phase. Just because you can deny does NOT mean you can't be aggressive on your opponent and harass them. You can actively do both. Denying is as much a part of lane control as farming, trading hits, asking for ganks, etc. To say that it makes Dota stagnant, and yet, the LoL meta has been so static that it requires such a huge facelift in season 3 that its virtually a different game is ridiculous.
#25ikilledkenny2Posted 11/26/2012 9:58:42 AM
You still have to be aggresiive/defensive when you cs and deny in dota wtf. Being able to dent doesn't mean you can't hit the other person...
#26MlREFOXPosted 11/26/2012 10:02:51 AM
seabasstian posted...
Holy_Serpent posted...
Removing denying creates more interaction with enemies in lane, making the game more aggressive.

Because now you can't just kill their minions from a distance to stop someone from farming. You're forced to fight and punish someone whenever they try to kill a creep, essentially "denying" through battle instead of just farming your own creep.

Denying gives the game a longer laning phase and makes the game stagnant.


Incorrect. Denying is simply another part of the laning phase. Just because you can deny does NOT mean you can't be aggressive on your opponent and harass them. You can actively do both. Denying is as much a part of lane control as farming, trading hits, asking for ganks, etc. To say that it makes Dota stagnant, and yet, the LoL meta has been so static that it requires such a huge facelift in season 3 that its virtually a different game is ridiculous.


You want to compare how dynamic these two games are? Really? What has changed in Dota over the past decade? LoL changes every few weeks with constant new champs, tweaks to mechanics, and item overhauls. As for being static, that is due to efficiency and isn't set in stone. Dota 2 is the same game it has been for years and is rather stale at this point.
#27ExalxPosted 11/26/2012 10:08:30 AM
Because it would kill off the support role.

Except for Alistar and Leona. They just need their kits to massacre the lane with their adc.
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#28seabasstianPosted 11/26/2012 10:15:08 AM
MlREFOX posted...
seabasstian posted...
Holy_Serpent posted...
Removing denying creates more interaction with enemies in lane, making the game more aggressive.

Because now you can't just kill their minions from a distance to stop someone from farming. You're forced to fight and punish someone whenever they try to kill a creep, essentially "denying" through battle instead of just farming your own creep.

Denying gives the game a longer laning phase and makes the game stagnant.


Incorrect. Denying is simply another part of the laning phase. Just because you can deny does NOT mean you can't be aggressive on your opponent and harass them. You can actively do both. Denying is as much a part of lane control as farming, trading hits, asking for ganks, etc. To say that it makes Dota stagnant, and yet, the LoL meta has been so static that it requires such a huge facelift in season 3 that its virtually a different game is ridiculous.


You want to compare how dynamic these two games are? Really? What has changed in Dota over the past decade? LoL changes every few weeks with constant new champs, tweaks to mechanics, and item overhauls. As for being static, that is due to efficiency and isn't set in stone. Dota 2 is the same game it has been for years and is rather stale at this point.


Once again, you fail to see the big picture here. You believe that LoL changes its meta every week when in reality, the new champs bring little to changing the "set in stone" stagnant meta. If the new heroes were as profound and game changing as you make them out to be, why did Morello state in an interview that Riot needed to do a better job at diversifying the meta? Morello also stated that AD carries needed to break away from the same old cookie cutter responsibilities and item builds. If nothing was wrong with LoL at the moment, Season 3 wouldn't have flipped the game upside, let alone, revert the jungle back to what it was, a mistake that was seen during Season 2.

I think LoL is okay, but you cannot deny that every game is nearly the same game with little to no deviation in team compositions and responsibilities. The fact that you can get reported for stepping outside of the boundaries of the meta demonstrates this. But no use in arguing. You like LoL. I like Dota. This discussion won't go anywhere.
#29CovenantPosted 11/26/2012 10:22:50 AM
seabasstian posted...
I think LoL is okay, but you cannot deny that every game is nearly the same game with little to no deviation in team compositions and responsibilities.


There is exactly one set of people for whom this is true: tryhards trying to copy professionals.

Professional teams practice and use a variety of team compositions and overall strategies. Less competitive players pretty much just play whatever the hell they want and make it work.

It is the people in between (tryhards in Ranked) who see the largely stagnant play.
#30MlREFOXPosted 11/26/2012 10:23:04 AM
seabasstian posted...
MlREFOX posted...
seabasstian posted...
Holy_Serpent posted...
Removing denying creates more interaction with enemies in lane, making the game more aggressive.

Because now you can't just kill their minions from a distance to stop someone from farming. You're forced to fight and punish someone whenever they try to kill a creep, essentially "denying" through battle instead of just farming your own creep.

Denying gives the game a longer laning phase and makes the game stagnant.


Incorrect. Denying is simply another part of the laning phase. Just because you can deny does NOT mean you can't be aggressive on your opponent and harass them. You can actively do both. Denying is as much a part of lane control as farming, trading hits, asking for ganks, etc. To say that it makes Dota stagnant, and yet, the LoL meta has been so static that it requires such a huge facelift in season 3 that its virtually a different game is ridiculous.


You want to compare how dynamic these two games are? Really? What has changed in Dota over the past decade? LoL changes every few weeks with constant new champs, tweaks to mechanics, and item overhauls. As for being static, that is due to efficiency and isn't set in stone. Dota 2 is the same game it has been for years and is rather stale at this point.


Once again, you fail to see the big picture here. You believe that LoL changes its meta every week when in reality, the new champs bring little to changing the "set in stone" stagnant meta. If the new heroes were as profound and game changing as you make them out to be, why did Morello state in an interview that Riot needed to do a better job at diversifying the meta? Morello also stated that AD carries needed to break away from the same old cookie cutter responsibilities and item builds. If nothing was wrong with LoL at the moment, Season 3 wouldn't have flipped the game upside, let alone, revert the jungle back to what it was, a mistake that was seen during Season 2.

I think LoL is okay, but you cannot deny that every game is nearly the same game with little to no deviation in team compositions and responsibilities. The fact that you can get reported for stepping outside of the boundaries of the meta demonstrates this. But no use in arguing. You like LoL. I like Dota. This discussion won't go anywhere.


Where did I say that new champ change the Meta? Work on your reading comprehension. The meta has developed because there are more efficient ways to do things than others. The same thing happens in all competitive games from Starcraft to football. As soon as a new viable strategy is found, it will become the new meta until it is broken again. Heck, in LoL, the meta has changed over two years. Just because it had been mainly unchanged for the last 16 months doesn't mean LoL's meta has been set in stone from day 1.

Again, LoL has seen dozens of new champs, evolving meta games, jungle overhauls, item overhauls, and even new maps in just the last two years.

Dota 2 represents what big changes?