I don't understand why people say denying makes no sense

#31TomorrowDogPosted 11/26/2012 10:28:07 AM
This is the advantage of having more than one active Moba, they got different features/gameplay.
---
"Happiness is nature's way of telling human resources you're overpaid." - Catbert
#32angermngment101Posted 11/26/2012 10:30:09 AM
From: ReadOnlyAccnt | #015
Neither is sending allies down a linear path to die over and over again


Uhhh.... they are not simply going out to die. Their purpose is to take over the enemy base by destroying the enemy towers.
---
Gamefax
#33ReadOnlyAccnt(Topic Creator)Posted 11/26/2012 10:31:48 AM
Holy_Serpent posted...
Removing denying creates more interaction with enemies in lane, making the game more aggressive.

Because now you can't just kill their minions from a distance to stop someone from farming. You're forced to fight and punish someone whenever they try to kill a creep, essentially "denying" through battle instead of just farming your own creep.

Denying gives the game a longer laning phase and makes the game stagnant.


False. If someone is denying the crap out of everything then you harrass the actual hero to get them out of the deny range. Unless its a solo melee vs ranged in which case you deserve to get owned for being dumb enough to do that.
---
Bleh
#34ReadOnlyAccnt(Topic Creator)Posted 11/26/2012 10:34:11 AM
MlREFOX posted...
seabasstian posted...
Holy_Serpent posted...
Removing denying creates more interaction with enemies in lane, making the game more aggressive.

Because now you can't just kill their minions from a distance to stop someone from farming. You're forced to fight and punish someone whenever they try to kill a creep, essentially "denying" through battle instead of just farming your own creep.

Denying gives the game a longer laning phase and makes the game stagnant.


Incorrect. Denying is simply another part of the laning phase. Just because you can deny does NOT mean you can't be aggressive on your opponent and harass them. You can actively do both. Denying is as much a part of lane control as farming, trading hits, asking for ganks, etc. To say that it makes Dota stagnant, and yet, the LoL meta has been so static that it requires such a huge facelift in season 3 that its virtually a different game is ridiculous.


You want to compare how dynamic these two games are? Really? What has changed in Dota over the past decade? LoL changes every few weeks with constant new champs, tweaks to mechanics, and item overhauls. As for being static, that is due to efficiency and isn't set in stone. Dota 2 is the same game it has been for years and is rather stale at this point.


Stale? I suggest you look at the change logs before making such ignorant assumptions. clearly you have no idea on the topic you are talking about and have lost all credibility.
---
Bleh
#35MlREFOXPosted 11/26/2012 10:34:13 AM
TomorrowDog posted...
This is the advantage of having more than one active Moba, they got different features/gameplay.


I agree with this and I have used the Starcraft/RoN comparison a number of times. I am just sick and tired of all the trolls with such inferiority complexes that they have to bash LoL and its player base because they subjectively find one game more fun than another or fail to realize that their "better" mechanics are a relic of a dated game.
#36Vince40Posted 11/26/2012 10:36:55 AM
Holy_Serpent posted...
Removing denying creates more interaction with enemies in lane, making the game more aggressive.

Because now you can't just kill their minions from a distance to stop someone from farming. You're forced to fight and punish someone whenever they try to kill a creep, essentially "denying" through battle instead of just farming your own creep.

Denying gives the game a longer laning phase and makes the game stagnant.


Um, denying helps to keep your cs above the enemy as well as keep the wave closer to your tower. WHICH in doing so helps to set up gank for your mid or jungle....... Do you even Dota?

"League has lane control without denying. As such, you're setting up a false dichotomy here."

And you're butt hurt that a game has more ways of denying than LoL.... Because?

"Hating poor implementations of strategy = hating strategy. Good argument."

Again hating more options that make sense as other have explained rather than LoL linear choices. Good rebuttal.

"You can attack minions without competing for them. You can help push, help take jungle objectives, and help teammates last hit at towers without any competition at all."

Again, don't TOUCH a single creep. Let me know how you do.

"You're misconstruing my point. Farming may be a necessary element of the game, but it is not a particularly entertaining one. If I just wanted to click on things all day and not interact with other people I'd play solitaire. Implementing creep denial would only add another layer of mundane strategy to an already mundane task. No thanks."

And I'm sorry you can't do more than one thing. Farm/deny/harass/etc.
---
I want something good to die for
To make it beautiful to live.
Queens Of The Stoneage
#37DoctorEggmanPosted 11/26/2012 10:37:16 AM
Lane control is not bad. That adds more strategy to a strategic moba. How you can't grasp that or why you hate strategy is beyond me.

Please explain how adding another set of minions to last hit adds "strategy" to the laning phase. Its just another set of minions to keep track of, except you generally can't use spells to kill them unless you're lich/old gangplank.

Its not really extra depth, its a snowball mechanic, except a terrible one, in that it reduces one's EXP gain on top of denying gold. So now, instead of an unfarmed champ vs farmed one, the losing champ now can't at least try to maintain levels by positioning, and the winning champ no longer has to risk his position in order to zone, all he has to do is deny.

Its not really a good mechanic. There are better ways of going about it.
---
If you read this signature, then that meant that I had control of what you read for 5 SECONDS!!
http://i.imgur.com/7f1Xt.jpg
#38AlmightyHamSandwichPosted 11/26/2012 10:44:50 AM(edited)
League of Legends has changed more in 3 years than DotA has in 10.

Just because the meta is stagnant now doesn't mean much. The game went through a lot of meta shifts to reach the 1-1-2-jungle meta and even now that's a relatively fluid thing. Or does no one remember Soraka/Sona/Janna dominating the support role, supplanted now by tankier, more versatile supports to initiate kills? Or the constantly shifting jungler lineups? Or the constantly shifting mid lineup?

As for denying, my biggest gripe with it is that it turns focus away from fighting your enemy to fighting your own creep waves. It opens up ugly, artificial ways to achieve lane dominance. In LoL, you freeze your lane by killing or bullying your opponent on a push and then last hit their minions carefully, turning the push against him. In DotA, you simply kill your own minions better than they can kill their own, effectively a pissing contest between who can manage creeps better.
---
Miami Heat: 2012 NBA Champions | Torchlight 2: AlmightyHamSandwich
I'm a TWSSted bastard.
#39MlREFOXPosted 11/26/2012 10:46:56 AM

Stale? I suggest you look at the change logs before making such ignorant assumptions. clearly you have no idea on the topic you are talking about and have lost all credibility.


The sad part is that you are serious. In ten years, the game is virtually untouched. There are patches and balances, and some names have been changed for copywrite reasons, but it is the same damn game. There are no improvements and no changes. Dota 2 is close to an HD patch. I can tell your MOBA experience began maybe 2 years ago. Quit pretending Dota 2 is anything new or fresh.
#40DoctorEggmanPosted 11/26/2012 10:50:26 AM
AlmightyHamSandwich posted...
In DotA, you simply kill your own minions better than they can kill their own, effectively a pissing contest between who can manage creeps better.


Essentially this. If you introduce ways to block your own creep and slow down their advance, lane control now becomes a matter of doing your best to stop your creep and having the wave push towards your tower. WIthout denial, there is no effective way to stop your wave from pushing. This is a GOOD thing. Smart players can then bait their opponents into pushing the wave, have to manage harassment with how it'll draw minion aggro, which will push the wave, etc. Being unable to stop a wave from pushing then opens up jungler ganks and brush control depends largely on where the lane is. A ward in the enemy's lane brush is meaningless if you're pushed to your tower and the support is hiding in the other brush.

tl:dr denial needs no place in league, and league is not worse off for it
---
If you read this signature, then that meant that I had control of what you read for 5 SECONDS!!
http://i.imgur.com/7f1Xt.jpg