I don't understand why people say denying makes no sense

#41Vince40Posted 11/26/2012 10:54:47 AM
AlmightyHamSandwich posted...

As for denying, my biggest gripe with it is that it turns focus away from fighting your enemy to fighting your own creep waves. It opens up ugly, artificial ways to achieve lane dominance. In LoL, you freeze your lane by killing or bullying your opponent on a push and then last hit their minions carefully, turning the push against him. In DotA, you simply kill your own minions better than they can kill their own, effectively a pissing contest between who can manage creeps better.


Why are you guys showing us more and more that you can't multitask?
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#42KilionVicPosted 11/26/2012 10:57:23 AM
It gives a huge advantage to those that can efficiently do it, and that's people that have a huge micromanagement experience and ability, which is not everyone, besides taking attention from the actual player controlled units, YOUR ACTUAL OPPONENTS. And really, what comes to mind when you think micromanagement? Koreans? Yeah. It's not a racist or prejudiced view, on the contrary, they are crazy good at it, and it works to their benefit.

They already tend to dominate competitive gaming, for they have a very old culture of competitive gaming in their country.

So really, do we need any more handicaps playing against them?

I vote no. We'd be digging our own graves =D.
#43DualSword31Posted 11/26/2012 10:59:15 AM
clicking my own creeps is REALLY hard
#44yourDaddiePosted 11/26/2012 10:59:38 AM
Exalx posted...
Because it would kill off the support role.

Except for Alistar and Leona. They just need their kits to massacre the lane with their adc.


But most people will accually like this
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#45CovenantPosted 11/26/2012 11:07:53 AM(edited)
Vince40 posted...
And you're butt hurt that a game has more ways of denying than LoL.... Because?


Yeah, I'm so mad that other games do things differently. It is senseless and inappropriate, so I should probably stop going to forums for games I don't even play and posting about it.

Ha. Ha. Ha.

EDIT: After having seen more of your posts, I believe this explanation to be necessary: I am using sarcasm to put forth the idea that you are the one who is mad, as is shown by the fact that you're going out of your way to post on the League of Legends forum and being far more emotional in your responses. In the future, I shall endeavour to tailor my message to my audience, as is the duty of all communicators, so that these edits are unnecessary.


Again hating more options that make sense as other have explained rather than LoL linear choices. Good rebuttal.


I don't hate more options. I prefer not to play games that include options that I believe make the game less fun.

I prefer fighting my opponent to last-hitting minions, so I prefer the game that emphasizes and is designed around fighting my opponent more directly because they actually bother expend effort to design the game in a way that makes the thing that I enjoy more enjoyable.

But apparently playing games that emphasize aspects that I enjoy is wrong. I shall take that into consideration.


Again, don't TOUCH a single creep. Let me know how you do.


I don't see any reason to do that. The idea that one should never interact with a minion is yours and yours alone.
#46Vince40Posted 11/26/2012 11:13:43 AM
Covenant posted...
Vince40 posted...
And you're butt hurt that a game has more ways of denying than LoL.... Because?


Yeah, I'm so mad that other games do things differently. It is senseless and inappropriate, so I should probably stop going to forums for games I don't even play and posting about it.

Ha. Ha. Ha.

EDIT: After having seen more of your posts, I believe this explanation to be necessary: I am using sarcasm to put forth the idea that you are the one who is mad, as is shown by the fact that you're going out of your way to post on the League of Legends forum and being far more emotional in your responses. In the future, I shall endeavour to tailor my message to my audience, as is the duty of all communicators, so that these edits are unnecessary.




Emotion? Where's the emotion? <_<

And maybe I post on LoL forums because I as well play the game along with Dota.

Also along with all of this I don't even recall whether were talking about if denying should be in LoL or Dota.

Of course it shouldn't be in LoL with the champs it has since it would be broken out the ass. Seeing as how Riot implemented it(through GP's ability rather than auto attack).
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#47AlmightyHamSandwichPosted 11/26/2012 11:17:31 AM
Vince40 posted...
Why are you guys showing us more and more that you can't multitask?


It's not about multitasking. Denying is the most efficient way to control your lane in DotA because you're keeping your opponent from getting EXP and gold. That's the rub. DotA players can and do fight their opponents when they achieve that lane control, but then it's right back to denying creeps if all they achieve is a stalemate.

Since you're bringing up multitasking, however, I'll note that in LoL, any given lane requires awareness of positioning, creep health for last hits, enemy positioning for openings to harass, awareness of the enemy jungler, and your own vulnerability to ganks to be successful, just like in DotA. You keep mentioning multitasking as if LoL has none of it and DotA has all of it due solely to denying and the dynamics of denying, which is really, really untrue.
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#48DoctorEggmanPosted 11/26/2012 11:22:45 AM
Vince40 posted...
AlmightyHamSandwich posted...

As for denying, my biggest gripe with it is that it turns focus away from fighting your enemy to fighting your own creep waves. It opens up ugly, artificial ways to achieve lane dominance. In LoL, you freeze your lane by killing or bullying your opponent on a push and then last hit their minions carefully, turning the push against him. In DotA, you simply kill your own minions better than they can kill their own, effectively a pissing contest between who can manage creeps better.


Why are you guys showing us more and more that you can't multitask?


Ah, traditional ad hominem. When one can't use their brain, they swap to their ass.

League has more minions per wave than Dota2 does. There are 6-7 creep to last hit on in League, vs Dota2's 4-5 per side, adding up to 8-10 creep one must be aware of.

If you really, really think denial is a great and tactically rich mechanic just because it gives you THREE MORE CREEP to click on, then we need a reality check, ASAP.

The crux of the matter is not how many minions one must click on. That's purely mechanical skill, and is nonessential to this discussion (there are far more technically complex games than Dota2 or League, for instance, have you ever played a fighting game?) If you laud denial as a skill identifier, then why not just add more creep? That would achieve the same purpose, and be less of a snowball mechanic.

The main point of contention is that a player in an advantageous position can further extend their advantage by denying his lane opponent EXP on top of gold, and a losing laner can't hold out and wait for the creep wave to push his way, as the enemy laner can just deny his own creep and undo the wave push. Its not as cut and dried as this, but nothing ever is in a diverse game. What needs examining is the mechanic in question, in a vacuum. And I, and many others, have already stated why denial is not a stellar mechanic as such.
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#49BarrenitePosted 11/26/2012 11:26:45 AM
Sometimes it seems like you dotapeople come to our forum more than your own.
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#50CovenantPosted 11/26/2012 11:28:53 AM
Vince40 posted...
Emotion? Where's the emotion? <_<


There are two reasons why I believe that you are angry.

1. Your posts indicate either anger or extreme deficiencies in critical thinking and I'm the kind of guy who likes to give people the benefit of the doubt rather than just writing them off as idiots.

2. You're saying that people who very obviously are not angry are angry. You're projecting.


And maybe I post on LoL forums because I as well play the game along with Dota.


You don't post here, other than in the recent rash of dota-related topics. All of which you come across as super mad in.


Also along with all of this I don't even recall whether were talking about if denying should be in LoL or Dota.


Yeah, being angry will do that.

We're talking about people not liking denying and we're in the League of Legends forum, so...


Of course it shouldn't be in LoL with the champs it has since it would be broken out the ass. Seeing as how Riot implemented it(through GP's ability rather than auto attack).


Raise Morale was broken because only one champion in the entire game could deny which gave you game-breaking lane control. The only good response was a lane swap that still put your team at a significant disadvantage. It wouldn't be broken if everyone could do it, it would just be a mechanic that takes the game in a direction that Riot doesn't want and that I, along with many people on this forum, don't seem to want either.