I don't understand why people say denying makes no sense

#71SirDanieIPosted 11/26/2012 3:38:05 PM
ReadOnlyAccnt posted...
What is the logic behind that? I really want to know, people keep saying its dumb and pointless and illogical.

But if you get exp and gold for killing a creep then why shouldn't you get less exp if you don't kill it?
By killing it you get the experience because you ended the creeps life but if someone takes the kill away you don't get the experience.

Its like if you aim a gun at a deer and shoot it you get the experience of how to aim well and shoot. As opposed to just aiming a gun at a deer and then someone else killing it before you do, you don't get the experience of actually shooting. semi bad analogy w/e.


According to your explanation we should get less exp if we dont kill the creep ourselves and other creeps kill it.
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#72MlREFOXPosted 11/26/2012 3:38:40 PM
ImpurePariah posted...
Dota 2 has been in beta for about 10 years now.


Fixed.
#73dennis941012Posted 11/26/2012 3:41:42 PM
Ephemeral1 posted...
Vince40 posted...
MlREFOX posted...
It makes sense, but that doesn't make it a necessary mechanic. Dota suffers from an overabundance of unwieldy mechanics straight out of the year 2000 and will never be as competitive as LoL for it.


Lane control is not bad. That adds more strategy to a strategic moba. How you can't grasp that or why you hate strategy is beyond me.

Also to the person that doesn't like to compete for creeps. Don't touch a single creep all game, just go for kills please. No creeps at all. Lets me know how you do.


You're misconstruing my point. Farming may be a necessary element of the game, but it is not a particularly entertaining one. If I just wanted to click on things all day and not interact with other people I'd play solitaire. Implementing creep denial would only add another layer of mundane strategy to an already mundane task. No thanks.


my point :O
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#74flyguy101Posted 11/26/2012 3:46:09 PM
ImpurePariah posted...
Dota 2 has been in beta for about 3 years now.


Dwarf fortress has been in beta for ~10 years.

Q.E.D. Dwarf Fortress > Dota 2
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#75aibohphobiaPosted 11/26/2012 4:27:52 PM
complain about denying, but embrace lane freezing

never change, gfaqs
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#76ReadOnlyAccnt(Topic Creator)Posted 11/26/2012 4:37:25 PM
Ariavoltage posted...
The problem is that once you are ahead of the enemy, it give almost COMPLETE lane control. In LoL there is a risk reward factor in that if the lane is pushed you are open to ganks from the jungler. However, in Dota that risk factor is gone when u can pretty much just kill your own minions to stop your lane from getting pushed. Not that control over your lane is a bad thing, but you shouldn't have that much control so easily. Lane control is also present in LoL just in a non all powerful form. Like late game when lanes are pushed so you can farm safely, there is a risk vs. reward form. If you could deny, you could just sit at base and kill your own minions for ridiculously easy farm. It is not just a problem that is present in the laning phase, but through out all phases of the game. Another example is when taking an early tower is a good or bad idea. On one side the opponent can not farm as easily but the lane will be more pushed towards his side. While on the other side, farming becomes more dangerous since the lane will be pushed toward the opponent however at the same time gives the opponent less safe areas to be in due to the turret range. This dynamic would be gone if you had the power to just deny your creeps to high heaven back to base.


You make it seem like the enemy just sits there while you deny non-stop giving you 100% control. As if its 1 player vs a bot. The other side is just as capable as denying as you what matters is who has the better skill when it comes to last hitting. Also you want to hit an equilibrium of CS and deny. If you just sit there denying the whole time you end up making negligible amounts of gold
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#77MlREFOXPosted 11/26/2012 5:02:30 PM
aibohphobia posted...
complain about denying, but embrace lane freezing

never change, gfaqs


No. We complain about Dota 2 trolls infesting our board trying to claim that it is an objective fact that denying is a better mechanic than lane freezing, which takes much more skill.
#78MlREFOXPosted 11/26/2012 5:04:20 PM
ReadOnlyAccnt posted...
Ariavoltage posted...
The problem is that once you are ahead of the enemy, it give almost COMPLETE lane control. In LoL there is a risk reward factor in that if the lane is pushed you are open to ganks from the jungler. However, in Dota that risk factor is gone when u can pretty much just kill your own minions to stop your lane from getting pushed. Not that control over your lane is a bad thing, but you shouldn't have that much control so easily. Lane control is also present in LoL just in a non all powerful form. Like late game when lanes are pushed so you can farm safely, there is a risk vs. reward form. If you could deny, you could just sit at base and kill your own minions for ridiculously easy farm. It is not just a problem that is present in the laning phase, but through out all phases of the game. Another example is when taking an early tower is a good or bad idea. On one side the opponent can not farm as easily but the lane will be more pushed towards his side. While on the other side, farming becomes more dangerous since the lane will be pushed toward the opponent however at the same time gives the opponent less safe areas to be in due to the turret range. This dynamic would be gone if you had the power to just deny your creeps to high heaven back to base.


You make it seem like the enemy just sits there while you deny non-stop giving you 100% control. As if its 1 player vs a bot. The other side is just as capable as denying as you what matters is who has the better skill when it comes to last hitting. Also you want to hit an equilibrium of CS and deny. If you just sit there denying the whole time you end up making negligible amounts of gold


One high damage item can give you substantially more control with the deny mechanic. Compare that to LoL where one high damage item requires better lane control lest you push too hard.
#79aibohphobiaPosted 11/26/2012 6:39:21 PM
MlREFOX posted...
No. We complain about Dota 2 trolls infesting our board trying to claim that it is an objective fact that denying is a better mechanic than lane freezing, which takes much more skill.

you should not be allowed to use the word troll

do you feel lane freezing is a good mechanic?

One high damage item can give you substantially more control with the deny mechanic. Compare that to LoL where one high damage item requires better lane control lest you push too hard.

you needs to learn to get your terminologies right
the high damage item is LoL doesn't give you lane control but last hitting power. denying gives lane control, not just having an easier time to last hit

assuming you still meant about needing better control with a large damage item in league, its so hard to keep doing the same thing you've been doing for the last 8-11 min (farming), especially now that you have more attack damage /s

also after the big damage item in dota most heroes don't bother with sitting in lane and denying because they can be much more productive either ganking or farming neutrals after pushing
unlike in league where laning phase is going to go on long after a BFS/phage is picked up
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#80CovenantPosted 11/26/2012 7:45:08 PM
aibohphobia posted...
you needs to learn to get your terminologies right
the high damage item is LoL doesn't give you lane control but last hitting power. denying gives lane control, not just having an easier time to last hit


That's what he said. At least try to make it look like you're bothering to read the posts.