Defense tree is completely useless now.

#1Xano1234Posted 12/8/2012 3:45:59 AM
Season 1 and Season 2, I put 30 points into defense tree. That combined with my runes, I was pretty tanky early on and near impossible to kill late game.

So in season 3 I try putting 30 in and my results have been....underwhelming. With the damage buff and defense nerfs, there isn't much use for the defense tree. They even took out many of the GOOD masteries like the cooldown per level mastery. The tenacity bonus is nice but the 10% crit, 1 ar/mr per champ and 6% bonus ar/mr are just....useless.

So I decided to try something. I use my same runes but for my support/tanks I now go 0/9/21.

HUGE DIFFERENCE.

The movement speed, the extra mana to spam spells, the cooldown reduction, everything. I actually have more health regen doing it this way thanks to the mana health regen mastery than if I went straight defense. You can literally get all the good defense masteries with 9 points. Any after that are really just kinda pointless compared to the offense and support tree.

I love the support tree but I'm kinda ticked my beloved defense tree is just stupid bad now. The only reason I could see to build into it is maybe junglers. Even then, I feel support would be better for the xp, movement speed for ganks, life/spell vamp and cooldowns.
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#2VegerunksPosted 12/8/2012 3:47:34 AM
Actually that 6% arm/MR is a pretty good one -.- It's just not a noticeably good build at the moment because of how many people are building heavy in Cleavers.
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#3Xano1234(Topic Creator)Posted 12/8/2012 3:51:22 AM
The 6% gives 5 extra armor/MR if you have 100 of either. That is absolutely nothing. Not only that, but it has to be BONUS armor. So you basically need 100 extra armor/mr to even have it take that miniscule effect. It is totally useless.
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#4Dark_Luna3Posted 12/8/2012 3:53:30 AM
but the 10% crit, 1 ar/mr per champ and 6% bonus ar/mr are just....useless.


Really? I think the first two are amazing masteries for 1 point. The latter I'm not convinced on either. It's okay for champions like Leona though (who has a steroid).
#5Dragonfable101Posted 12/8/2012 3:57:24 AM
Defensive masteries seem to be unpopular right now.

Whether they are really useless remains to be determined.. it hasn't even been a week guys.
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#6Xano1234(Topic Creator)Posted 12/8/2012 5:41:07 AM
Here are some numbers to show how inefficient defense tree is.

Leona: Level 1 Stats with Defense Tree

HP: Base: 430. Durability gives +6 at level 1, Vet Scars gives 30 and Juggernaut gives 4%.
Final HP at level 1: 484.64

Armor: Base: 18. With +5 from Hardiness and 2 ticks of Defender
Final Armor: 25

MR: Base: 30 Same as above: +5 and 2 ticks of Defender
Final MR: 37

Legendary Armor and Perserverence do not even factor in because you don't have any bonus armor and Perseverence only gives you additional health regen once you take damage. At near death, it only gives you +1.2 hp/sec regen.

Now for offense.

Cait: Level 1 stats in offense

Damage: Base: 47. +.68 from deadliness and +3 from brute force and 2% damage increase from Havoc.
Final AD: 51.69

Attack Speed: Base: .668. With 4% from fury.
Final AS: .694

Damage against Leona from Cait's AA's.

With Leona's armor. She reduces attack damage by 23%

Now Cait's masteries give her armor pent. It starts with 8% from Weapon Expertise. This reduces Leona's armor to 23. Next is 6 flat from Sunder. It is as if Leona's armor is 17 from the armor pent.

Not taking into account Runes and items and such. Point for point, putting points into offense actually completely outdoes anything in defense. Both level 1 with no items, all the benefits Leona had from Masteries are taken away due to Cait's offensive masteries and armor pent.

There is simply no point in putting points into Defense if Offense itself with no help from runes or items already completely outdoes it.

Here are some ideas I have to balance things out.

1. Perseverance gives flat HP regen instead of based on health.

2. Safeguard now prevents additional turret damage. When a turret attacks you, each additional attack does 22% extra damage. Safeguard now prevents the stacking of turret damage.

3. Make Legendary armor be based on ALL armor/MR, not just bonus.

The thing about offensive tree is that it scales well. Nearly all the bonuses in the defensive tree are flat bonuses. Great for level 1, but anything past the first few levels and it just drops off to being useless. The 8% armor pent actually gets better the more armor a tank gets.

It just doesn't make any sense. The slow reduction and tenacity are negligible when you die so quickly anymore/
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#7RiliyksPosted 12/8/2012 5:52:17 AM
I think, the main purpose of the nerfing of the defense tree alongside with making armor harder to come by was to mostly nerf bruisers/tanky junglers who could have very solid defenses by mid game and start snowballing their team.

Although I will say, the one mastery I miss the most from defense is merc, the extra gold from assists/kills really added up.

Riot's been slowly trying to shift even more into a heavy offensive style gameplay setting. (If the decrease in ad cost and increase in armor cost wasn't any indication) to help reduce the need of armor pen late game. Of course, then they also make pen much more accessable to everyone ON TOP of the offensive power increase. -rolls eyes-

I'm sure some champs can still get good milage out of defense, but it's no longer the go to skill tree for all mastery pages. (Leona, Rammus, and Wukong come to mind)
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#8Gun SagePosted 12/8/2012 6:01:16 AM
You forgot about the two masteries that lower damage from champions by 2, and lowers damage from champ AA's by 3. I took that + Doran's shield on Leona at one point just for the heck of it and laughed as cait auto-attacked me for maybe 30 damage a pop.
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#9Xano1234(Topic Creator)Posted 12/8/2012 6:03:10 AM
That works fine at level 1 Gun Sage, but the point is that once they get a damage item or 2, that slight amount of damage blocked is completely negated.
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#10RiliyksPosted 12/8/2012 6:07:33 AM
And by then, Leona's sporting a fancy item like Ageis of the Legion, and has probably leveled her shield ability a couple of times, so it makes up the difference. :P
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