Xano1234 posted...Here are some numbers to show how inefficient defense tree is.
Leona: Level 1 Stats with Defense Tree
HP: Base: 430. Durability gives +6 at level 1, Vet Scars gives 30 and Juggernaut gives 4%. Final HP at level 1: 484.64
Armor: Base: 18. With +5 from Hardiness and 2 ticks of Defender Final Armor: 25
MR: Base: 30 Same as above: +5 and 2 ticks of Defender Final MR: 37
Legendary Armor and Perserverence do not even factor in because you don't have any bonus armor and Perseverence only gives you additional health regen once you take damage. At near death, it only gives you +1.2 hp/sec regen.
Now for offense.
Cait: Level 1 stats in offense
Damage: Base: 47. +.68 from deadliness and +3 from brute force and 2% damage increase from Havoc. Final AD: 51.69
Attack Speed: Base: .668. With 4% from fury. Final AS: .694
Damage against Leona from Cait's AA's.
With Leona's armor. She reduces attack damage by 23%
Now Cait's masteries give her armor pent. It starts with 8% from Weapon Expertise. This reduces Leona's armor to 23. Next is 6 flat from Sunder. It is as if Leona's armor is 17 from the armor pent.
Not taking into account Runes and items and such. Point for point, putting points into offense actually completely outdoes anything in defense. Both level 1 with no items, all the benefits Leona had from Masteries are taken away due to Cait's offensive masteries and armor pent.
There is simply no point in putting points into Defense if Offense itself with no help from runes or items already completely outdoes it.
Here are some ideas I have to balance things out.
1. Perseverance gives flat HP regen instead of based on health.
2. Safeguard now prevents additional turret damage. When a turret attacks you, each additional attack does 22% extra damage. Safeguard now prevents the stacking of turret damage.
3. Make Legendary armor be based on ALL armor/MR, not just bonus.
The thing about offensive tree is that it scales well. Nearly all the bonuses in the defensive tree are flat bonuses. Great for level 1, but anything past the first few levels and it just drops off to being useless. The 8% armor pent actually gets better the more armor a tank gets.
It just doesn't make any sense. The slow reduction and tenacity are negligible when you die so quickly anymore/ gamefaqs finest  Worlds best JOHNNY CAGE. Makin look easy since '94

From: Xano1234  #006Armor: Base: 18. With +5 from Hardiness and 2 ticks of Defender Final Armor: 25
MR: Base: 30 Same as above: +5 and 2 ticks of Defender Final MR: 37
Legendary Armor and Perserverence do not even factor in because you don't have any bonus armor The extra armor from masteries counts as bonus armor...  Official Mienshao of the pokemon B/W and BW2 clans Comic pull list: UXF, WatX, Hawkeye, Secret Avengers, Gambit, JLD, and Batwing

Xano1234 posted...Here are some numbers to show how inefficient defense tree is.
Leona: Level 1 Stats with Defense Tree
HP: Base: 430. Durability gives +6 at level 1, Vet Scars gives 30 and Juggernaut gives 4%. Final HP at level 1: 484.64
Armor: Base: 18. With +5 from Hardiness and 2 ticks of Defender Final Armor: 25
MR: Base: 30 Same as above: +5 and 2 ticks of Defender Final MR: 37
Legendary Armor and Perserverence do not even factor in because you don't have any bonus armor and Perseverence only gives you additional health regen once you take damage. At near death, it only gives you +1.2 hp/sec regen.
Now for offense.
Cait: Level 1 stats in offense
Damage: Base: 47. +.68 from deadliness and +3 from brute force and 2% damage increase from Havoc. Final AD: 51.69
Attack Speed: Base: .668. With 4% from fury. Final AS: .694
Damage against Leona from Cait's AA's.
With Leona's armor. She reduces attack damage by 23%
Now Cait's masteries give her armor pent. It starts with 8% from Weapon Expertise. This reduces Leona's armor to 23. Next is 6 flat from Sunder. It is as if Leona's armor is 17 from the armor pent.
Not taking into account Runes and items and such. Point for point, putting points into offense actually completely outdoes anything in defense. Both level 1 with no items, all the benefits Leona had from Masteries are taken away due to Cait's offensive masteries and armor pent.
There is simply no point in putting points into Defense if Offense itself with no help from runes or items already completely outdoes it.
Here are some ideas I have to balance things out.
1. Perseverance gives flat HP regen instead of based on health.
2. Safeguard now prevents additional turret damage. When a turret attacks you, each additional attack does 22% extra damage. Safeguard now prevents the stacking of turret damage.
3. Make Legendary armor be based on ALL armor/MR, not just bonus.
The thing about offensive tree is that it scales well. Nearly all the bonuses in the defensive tree are flat bonuses. Great for level 1, but anything past the first few levels and it just drops off to being useless. The 8% armor pent actually gets better the more armor a tank gets.
It just doesn't make any sense. The slow reduction and tenacity are negligible when you die so quickly anymore/ I just woke up...so maybe I missed it... .but the whole point about leona is her W skill...which I don't think you caculated in this giant thesis fail.  Question, how did world trade center building 7 (the 3rd building to fall) collapse during 9/11? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnnjIzamnJo

Xano1234 posted...Here are some numbers to show how inefficient defense tree is.
Leona: Level 1 Stats with Defense Tree
HP: Base: 430. Durability gives +6 at level 1, Vet Scars gives 30 and Juggernaut gives 4%. Final HP at level 1: 484.64
Armor: Base: 18. With +5 from Hardiness and 2 ticks of Defender Final Armor: 25
MR: Base: 30 Same as above: +5 and 2 ticks of Defender Final MR: 37
Legendary Armor and Perserverence do not even factor in because you don't have any bonus armor and Perseverence only gives you additional health regen once you take damage. At near death, it only gives you +1.2 hp/sec regen.
Now for offense.
Cait: Level 1 stats in offense
Damage: Base: 47. +.68 from deadliness and +3 from brute force and 2% damage increase from Havoc. Final AD: 51.69
Attack Speed: Base: .668. With 4% from fury. Final AS: .694
Damage against Leona from Cait's AA's.
With Leona's armor. She reduces attack damage by 23%
Now Cait's masteries give her armor pent. It starts with 8% from Weapon Expertise. This reduces Leona's armor to 23. Next is 6 flat from Sunder. It is as if Leona's armor is 17 from the armor pent.
Not taking into account Runes and items and such. Point for point, putting points into offense actually completely outdoes anything in defense. Both level 1 with no items, all the benefits Leona had from Masteries are taken away due to Cait's offensive masteries and armor pent.
There is simply no point in putting points into Defense if Offense itself with no help from runes or items already completely outdoes it.
Here are some ideas I have to balance things out.
1. Perseverance gives flat HP regen instead of based on health.
2. Safeguard now prevents additional turret damage. When a turret attacks you, each additional attack does 22% extra damage. Safeguard now prevents the stacking of turret damage.
3. Make Legendary armor be based on ALL armor/MR, not just bonus.
The thing about offensive tree is that it scales well. Nearly all the bonuses in the defensive tree are flat bonuses. Great for level 1, but anything past the first few levels and it just drops off to being useless. The 8% armor pent actually gets better the more armor a tank gets.
It just doesn't make any sense. The slow reduction and tenacity are negligible when you die so quickly anymore/ So instead you put most points into support tree and take even more dmg...  "God forbid we not stare at mithra ass for 6 hours while waiting for our Monk to get a group to punch stuff."  AnguishedTears

Xano1234 posted...Here are some numbers to show how inefficient defense tree is.
Leona: Level 1 Stats with Defense Tree
Final HP at level 1: 484.64
Armor: Base: 18. With +5 from Hardiness and 2 ticks of Defender Final Armor: 25
MR: Base: 30 Same as above: +5 and 2 ticks of Defender Final MR: 37 And just because it's leona and I love her... I went into game and even forgot to put on defense masteries. Still no rune though. At lvl 1, with W, her armor is 51 and MR is 61 even without masteries.  Question, how did world trade center building 7 (the 3rd building to fall) collapse during 9/11? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnnjIzamnJo

Right for all the wrong reasons I guess.
DROPPED.

Irelia and jarman are ok with defense tree, but you really shouldnt be doing that with them, most of the defense tree gets negated later and you may be better of sporting a 0/9/21 in masteries for the gold increase to fund the pricey lavish lifestyle of tanks, taric is alright still  Halo4 is a gothamcityimpostors clone, which is not a good thing at all Anarchy Reigns is coming for 30 bucks, get hype!

I've had no issues with Leo and using the defense tree. They've really just forced people like Irelia, Diana, and Olaf to use offensive masteries. Since this would cause them to not fear diving.
Yes that's fun and all but once Irelia has wits the game pretty much over. Need to be changed even as heavy Irelia player.  Legendary Loser GT: Oximofo9 PSN: oximofo9 http://i53.tinypic.com/2969fq.jpg

leona, and a few, are those who would spec into defense tree because they can actually have access to bonus armor easily through skills. Rammus and singed would work too through w and ult. But amumu, ali and such pretty much go 0/9/21.
To go safe though, gold mastery in utility has a better result overall as you can get defense(aegis) faster for solid faster without heavily depend on your skills.  POK Erthroid Myeloid Ontogenic

(Topic Creator)3 years ago#20 Guys, the point isn't about abilities. I am well aware that Leona can buff her armor/ MR with her W.
I only used Leona as an tanky character that would take defense masteries.
Same reason I used Cait as the adc example.
The entire point of the topic was that no matter what, the offensive masteries will always outplay the defense masteries past the first 23 level.  Brawl Friend Code: 154748839310
