Why isn't Elise used more?

#21RzulPosted 12/10/2012 9:12:43 AM
Guys if TC wants to use Elise let him, no one is stopping him. The problem is that he asked a question and I gave him a legitimate response and in turn he gave a retort advocating his love for Elise.

If anything TC, you should be happy less people use her. If you are that amazing with her, then faceroll your opponents and stop worrying about it. The less people use her, the better, that way you can crap all over Darius, Jax, Ahri or whomever else you lane against.
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#22Arken101Posted 12/10/2012 9:14:29 AM
_Yag_ posted...
its awesome how I now know I'm right, because I posted a real post and in response I got a whopping

"1v1 me bro" <---ROFL

and a "youre wrong"

really compelling stuff guys, really compelling.


Sigh
Fine

Okay, in the example you gave its like you totally forgot that Elise has skills too.
Level 1 Jax can get no farm at all, he's eating constant Neurotoxin's and getting drained low. His W has a 10 second CD compared to Elise's Q which is 6 seconds. Lets do a level 4 encounter hmmmm
Elise would have 2q, 1w, 1e. Jax would probably have 2q, 1w, 1e. Jax can't engage in melee as he is eating constant harass this way, so his only engagement comes from Leapstrike, he lands and gets stunned eating a full human combo, his choices are now a) walk away with counterstrike on or b) try to fight.
Option a) Elise is in spider murdering him, when Counterstrike is about to go off Elise Rappels, causing it to miss, and putting her on top of jax again, she continues attacking him until she can't anymore, at which point she would Q him, go into human form and QW him, more than likely ending in him dying at some point there.
Option b) He activates Counterstrike, at which point Elise rappels, and avoids it for the duration, she comes down Q's him, activates W and is now out damaging him like mad, albeit for only a couple seconds, afterwards Jax would have a slight advantage in damage due to being able to Empower often. however Elise still wins the engagement due to having a better sustained damage with W and lings, as well as Q, should Jax turn to run Elise would go human, QW and Auto him.

Nothing is in Jax's favor in this.
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#23tweakerlimePosted 12/10/2012 9:20:17 AM
I have been playing elise in top lane a lot lately and i have been absolutely pooping all over the other champs with q harrass. I have seriously have not loat my lane once. I think Elise's problems are late game, but hopefully you stomped top lane hard and got fed enough to be a presence in thr late game.
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#24Arken101Posted 12/10/2012 9:22:19 AM
tweakerlime posted...
I have been playing elise in top lane a lot lately and i have been absolutely pooping all over the other champs with q harrass. I have seriously have not loat my lane once. I think Elise's problems are late game, but hopefully you stomped top lane hard and got fed enough to be a presence in thr late game.


Sorc's/Liandrys/Malady/Fist/Abyssal/Zhonya's
Grats you are now an unstoppable late game monster.
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#25AirsoftcomebackPosted 12/10/2012 9:33:42 AM
From: _Yag_ | Posted: 12/10/2012 9:02:07 AM | #012
_HeX posted...
_Yag_ posted...
_HeX posted...
Rzul posted...
Because you can pick another champ for each of those roles and do better. More often than not Elise player overestimate their damage output and dive at stupid times which ends up with a kill for the enemy. Besides, most people don't know when to use which ability or when to switch to Spider form.


Nah, she's one of the best top champ picks. There isn't anyone top that I don't have at least a 50/50 chance against. Common picks like Jax, Olaf and Irelia I can crap all over thanks to her good base ratios and abilities that deal % damage. I've had a lot of success with her.


then you were playing against a bad(worse than you anyway) jax, he can own her if you do it right.


roflmao

Do tell exactly how Jax owns Elise.

And do be specific.


lets see, base stats and ratios?

jax wins in health, Mres, Basic Atk, AS, and MS.

1. Jax has higher base dmg on his abilities: Leapstrike does 70+(60+ right out the gate with no runes or masteries, and thats not even taking into account when he gets empower to buff it further. neuro toxin does 50+8%health (4.4hp from a lvl 1 jax) so he wins that trade every time. Leapstrike does more dmg up to rank 4 with rank 5 having them do the same dmg.

2. his ratios destroy elise's ratios. Leapstrike has (1.0) (0.6) modifiers, empower has (0.6), and CS has a (0.5). neuro toxin has (0.03) ratio and while volatile spiderling has a (0.8) and higher base dmg numbers than empower it's irrelivent because that ability is ridiculously easy to dodge along with cacoon which does 0 dmg at all ranks as opposed to counterstrikes 100 dmg at rank 1 and keeps hitting harder.

3. now I havent mentioned spider form, but thats because counterstrike totally negates spider form competely, you will dodge everything elise has to throw at you, and with her range advantage gone and the stun she isnt catching up unless she uses rappel, but by that time his cooldowns are back so he can just smack her again or you can save your Q to make a quick escape before she can rappel on you.

4. now lets look at ults, elise has her toggle ult that grants 10dmg 10armor/Mres and 10MS, and her spiderlings do 10dmg more also at rank one. at rank 1 jax gets 100 dmg every third attack passively and 43 armor/37 Mres when cast.


TL;DR - Jax (whos base dmg and ratios are better than elise's) simply needs to W>Q into her and E while backing off while shes in human form, and W>E>Q>W while shes in spider for to win any exchange. and since his ult is much stronger once he hits 6 he can bully her easily.

really the only thing she has going for her in the match up is that shes ranged, but a little spellvamp will even that out for jax.

and thats why jax is better, you just played a bad jax. thx.

EDIT@ Arken: Who build heavy hp on jax? >_> nobody so her %hp wont mean crap.



Jax loses to Elise and it isn't even close.

Feel free to call me a bad Jax though.
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#26BeerzerkPosted 12/10/2012 9:34:37 AM
Elise is an awesome character. Been using her since her release with great results as a top, mid and jungler. A lot of people who says she is not good are just close minded players who only go for what the pro players play in tournaments which end up being their weakness since they underestimate the newer champs.

It is going to suck that once the Pro Players start picking her in tournaments then everyone is going to start using her just like what happened with Diana and Orianna.

I have not yet lost as Elise to a Jax on top since a majority of the Jax players are kill hungry more than farm hungry. They screw up by trying to jump in for the kill first not knowing that Elise has a damaging stun combo in regular form and another damaging combo in spider form pre-6.
#27Dark_DcPosted 12/10/2012 9:51:22 AM
Beerzerk posted...
Elise is an awesome character. Been using her since her release with great results as a top, mid and jungler. A lot of people who says she is not good are just close minded players who only go for what the pro players play in tournaments which end up being their weakness since they underestimate the newer champs.

It is going to suck that once the Pro Players start picking her in tournaments then everyone is going to start using her just like what happened with Diana and Orianna.

I have not yet lost as Elise to a Jax on top since a majority of the Jax players are kill hungry more than farm hungry. They screw up by trying to jump in for the kill first not knowing that Elise has a damaging stun combo in regular form and another damaging combo in spider form pre-6.


Agreed. I was pleasantly surprised to realize I now have a counter to jax.

Watch out for Wukong though. I had a rough time vs a good one (though I missed an AA resulting in me giving FB in a REALLY close fight, and his mid ahri roamed + jungler camped). His armor pen and free harass/possibility to dodge some Qs make him tough.
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#28funkys-flightsPosted 12/10/2012 10:34:22 AM
_Yag_ posted...
_HeX posted...
_Yag_ posted...
_HeX posted...
Rzul posted...
Because you can pick another champ for each of those roles and do better. More often than not Elise player overestimate their damage output and dive at stupid times which ends up with a kill for the enemy. Besides, most people don't know when to use which ability or when to switch to Spider form.


Nah, she's one of the best top champ picks. There isn't anyone top that I don't have at least a 50/50 chance against. Common picks like Jax, Olaf and Irelia I can crap all over thanks to her good base ratios and abilities that deal % damage. I've had a lot of success with her.


then you were playing against a bad(worse than you anyway) jax, he can own her if you do it right.


roflmao

Do tell exactly how Jax owns Elise.

And do be specific.


lets see, base stats and ratios?

jax wins in health, Mres, Basic Atk, AS, and MS.

1. Jax has higher base dmg on his abilities: Leapstrike does 70+(60+ right out the gate with no runes or masteries, and thats not even taking into account when he gets empower to buff it further. neuro toxin does 50+8%health (4.4hp from a lvl 1 jax) so he wins that trade every time. Leapstrike does more dmg up to rank 4 with rank 5 having them do the same dmg.

2. his ratios destroy elise's ratios. Leapstrike has (1.0) (0.6) modifiers, empower has (0.6), and CS has a (0.5). neuro toxin has (0.03) ratio and while volatile spiderling has a (0.8) and higher base dmg numbers than empower it's irrelivent because that ability is ridiculously easy to dodge along with cacoon which does 0 dmg at all ranks as opposed to counterstrikes 100 dmg at rank 1 and keeps hitting harder.

3. now I havent mentioned spider form, but thats because counterstrike totally negates spider form competely, you will dodge everything elise has to throw at you, and with her range advantage gone and the stun she isnt catching up unless she uses rappel, but by that time his cooldowns are back so he can just smack her again or you can save your Q to make a quick escape before she can rappel on you.

4. now lets look at ults, elise has her toggle ult that grants 10dmg 10armor/Mres and 10MS, and her spiderlings do 10dmg more also at rank one. at rank 1 jax gets 100 dmg every third attack passively and 43 armor/37 Mres when cast.


TL;DR - Jax (whos base dmg and ratios are better than elise's) simply needs to W>Q into her and E while backing off while shes in human form, and W>E>Q>W while shes in spider for to win any exchange. and since his ult is much stronger once he hits 6 he can bully her easily.

really the only thing she has going for her in the match up is that shes ranged, but a little spellvamp will even that out for jax.

and thats why jax is better, you just played a bad jax. thx.

EDIT@ Arken: Who build heavy hp on jax? >_> nobody so her %hp wont mean crap.



Awesome. Elise is ranged gg free harass. Counter strike is jax's main dueling aspect is worthless: elises main damage output is spells, not autos, and it has a very obvious 2second channel, in which elise has plenty of time to R->E (rappel) and dodge the stun altogether.
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#29T3h_4rb1t0rPosted 12/10/2012 11:23:19 AM
High Skill cap in a game of mostly noobs.
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#30zynnkPosted 12/10/2012 11:28:37 AM
Arken101 posted...
_Yag_ posted...
its awesome how I now know I'm right, because I posted a real post and in response I got a whopping

"1v1 me bro" <---ROFL

and a "youre wrong"

really compelling stuff guys, really compelling.


Sigh
Fine

Okay, in the example you gave its like you totally forgot that Elise has skills too.
Level 1 Jax can get no farm at all, he's eating constant Neurotoxin's and getting drained low. His W has a 10 second CD compared to Elise's Q which is 6 seconds. Lets do a level 4 encounter hmmmm
Elise would have 2q, 1w, 1e. Jax would probably have 2q, 1w, 1e. Jax can't engage in melee as he is eating constant harass this way, so his only engagement comes from Leapstrike, he lands and gets stunned eating a full human combo, his choices are now a) walk away with counterstrike on or b) try to fight.
Option a) Elise is in spider murdering him, when Counterstrike is about to go off Elise Rappels, causing it to miss, and putting her on top of jax again, she continues attacking him until she can't anymore, at which point she would Q him, go into human form and QW him, more than likely ending in him dying at some point there.
Option b) He activates Counterstrike, at which point Elise rappels, and avoids it for the duration, she comes down Q's him, activates W and is now out damaging him like mad, albeit for only a couple seconds, afterwards Jax would have a slight advantage in damage due to being able to Empower often. however Elise still wins the engagement due to having a better sustained damage with W and lings, as well as Q, should Jax turn to run Elise would go human, QW and Auto him.

Nothing is in Jax's favor in this.


stopped reading from there
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