Why isn't Elise used more?

#41funkys-flightsPosted 12/10/2012 4:22:26 PM
aryanbrar posted...
Shze a ap carry. Her stun is a skill shot. Travels in a line at rather slow speed. Cc her and she's dead. All her damage except w is single target. A lot of top lancers can kill her rather easily. Cc + Mr = gg Elise. 99% of Elise players can't even use her escape properly. High skill cap + squishy + manager hungry = Elise.


She is not ap carry. Building her would be very inefficient. She has %total hp damage, high base damage and lower scaling in comparison to other mages. All this evidence leads to the fact that riot intended her to be built ap bruiser.

Saying she's mana hungry is also ill informed as 5/8 skills are free to cast. Saying she has an escape is ill informed, she really doesn't have one. It's as if calling Xin Zhao's charge an escape, as it can only target enemies.

I usually run something like frozen heart and hourglass as core: high armor vs popular ad bruisers top, as well as cdr for %hp damage more often. In human it's %max hp, in spider its %missing, so you can switch to spider to finish off the enemy.

Also, I don't understand the cc argument. Doesn't cc beat any champ? Whoever you would say is a strong top pick, I could say the same: CC him/her and she's dead. (save maybe irelia/trundle)
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#42ssj98_gotenksPosted 12/10/2012 4:29:34 PM
From: funkys-flights | #041
Saying she's mana hungry is also ill informed as 5/8 skills are free to cast. Saying she has an escape is ill informed, she really doesn't have one. It's as if calling Xin Zhao's charge an escape, as it can only target enemies.


Nah I disagree. The use of Rappel is way too good if you're smart about it. It is an escape because it can be used to, well, escape. Depends on where you are, sure, but I've escaped with that move the same amount as I've gap closed with it, and the same amount used to dodge something.

Also, I don't understand the cc argument. Doesn't cc beat any champ? Whoever you would say is a strong top pick, I could say the same: CC him/her and she's dead. (save maybe irelia/trundle)

yup

but it's hard as hell to CC Elise unless you're in the team fight phase.
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#43EltoniaXPosted 12/10/2012 4:39:42 PM
I like how people on the jax side of the argument are saying her stun is hard to hit, when the entire argument about using her stun is that she uses it when jax jumps on her. How does she miss her stun at point blank range?
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#44PKMNsonyPosted 12/10/2012 4:47:19 PM
2 hawd lyk jace
#45aryanbrarPosted 12/10/2012 4:52:24 PM
funkys-flights posted...
aryanbrar posted...
Shze a ap carry. Her stun is a skill shot. Travels in a line at rather slow speed. Cc her and she's dead. All her damage except w is single target. A lot of top lancers can kill her rather easily. Cc + Mr = gg Elise. 99% of Elise players can't even use her escape properly. High skill cap + squishy + manager hungry = Elise.


She is not ap carry. Building her would be very inefficient. She has %total hp damage, high base damage and lower scaling in comparison to other mages. All this evidence leads to the fact that riot intended her to be built ap bruiser.

Saying she's mana hungry is also ill informed as 5/8 skills are free to cast. Saying she has an escape is ill informed, she really doesn't have one. It's as if calling Xin Zhao's charge an escape, as it can only target enemies.

I usually run something like frozen heart and hourglass as core: high armor vs popular ad bruisers top, as well as cdr for %hp damage more often. In human it's %max hp, in spider its %missing, so you can switch to spider to finish off the enemy.

Also, I don't understand the cc argument. Doesn't cc beat any champ? Whoever you would say is a strong top pick, I could say the same: CC him/her and she's dead. (save maybe irelia/trundle)



she lacks any shield, has low armor/mr values. you're building her tanky, its like building lux tanky. her 2 main moves cost mana, using spider form on some1 with high hp is useless. one cc is not enough, one medicore aoe attack is not enough. her e can be used to escape, see the post below. if someone with cc, goes all out on elise its over. she's squishy period and needs a small buff.

any success top with elise is probably against bad opponents or people who lack knowledge. defenses gained from spider form(needs buff) is underwhelming, shvy's dragon form offers better defenses.

no not all champs die to cc, champs like try, mal, ali and cho can escape after being cc'd.

without her human form W, her q can't damage opponent enough to do her full combo. any gap closer/cc combo used on elise will go in bruisers favor, they will outdamage you.
#46EltoniaXPosted 12/10/2012 4:59:45 PM(edited)
well, think whatever you want to think.

Elise has some problems. Her amazing laning phase is not one of them.
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#47funkys-flightsPosted 12/10/2012 5:15:17 PM
she lacks any shield, has low armor/mr values. you're building her tanky, its like building lux tanky. her 2 main moves cost mana, using spider form on some1 with high hp is useless. one cc is not enough, one medicore aoe attack is not enough. her e can be used to escape, see the post below. if someone with cc, goes all out on elise its over. she's squishy period and needs a small buff.

any success top with elise is probably against bad opponents or people who lack knowledge. defenses gained from spider form(needs buff) is underwhelming, shvy's dragon form offers better defenses.

no not all champs die to cc, champs like try, mal, ali and cho can escape after being cc'd.

without her human form W, her q can't damage opponent enough to do her full combo. any gap closer/cc combo used on elise will go in bruisers favor, they will outdamage you.


Jax lacks the same shield. Only difference is one has sustain in both free skills and hp regen: Elise. Point goes to her in favor of sustain.

Jax has higher base and scaling hp (note this, it's important) as well as mres, as well as scaling mres, pretty uncommon. Jax has 6 higher base armor but equal scaling. So base stats go to his favor. Save for one fact: he is melee.

Top's, like jax, tend to have high hp stats. This is bonus damage on Elise's Q harass. Another commonly rushed item top is Phage (often to TF). More bonus damage on her Q.

Gap closers are, in my opinion, her best friend. This sticks the enemy directly in her face for the easiest 1.5 second stun imaginable. This means a free Q&W, as well as either repositioning or a switch to spider form to keep fighting. Building elise tanky is NOT like building lux tanky. Lux has flat damage, elise has % based. This means cooldown reduction is much more vital to her damage output, allowing for two attacks of bonus 16-20% of max hp/missing hp. This keeps her consistent, so she can remain with strong attacks on higher hp targets while not having to actually build more damage.

Your arguments are very vague and ignorant. Calling an attack 'not enough' isn't very specific...and your CC arguments can be applied to anyone, like I said. CC lock any champ for 4-5 seconds and in theory any could die. Hypothetically a hyper tank could withstand that much, but that's pretty irrelevant...


As for the dude who said rappel can be used as an escape: I love doin that :) you can pull some fancy jukes and mind games with it when being ganked. I've been able to turn around ganks so much with it. Seems like some ppl don't understand if she has no target she falls to the same place.
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anoche sone contigo ;)
#48_Yag_Posted 12/10/2012 5:39:23 PM(edited)
Arken101 posted...
_Yag_ posted...
its awesome how I now know I'm right, because I posted a real post and in response I got a whopping

"1v1 me bro" <---ROFL

and a "youre wrong"

really compelling stuff guys, really compelling.


Sigh
Fine

Okay, in the example you gave its like you totally forgot that Elise has skills too.
Level 1 Jax can get no farm at all, he's eating constant Neurotoxin's and getting drained low. His W has a 10 second CD compared to Elise's Q which is 6 seconds. Lets do a level 4 encounter hmmmm
Elise would have 2q, 1w, 1e. Jax would probably have 2q, 1w, 1e. Jax can't engage in melee as he is eating constant harass this way, so his only engagement comes from Leapstrike, he lands and gets stunned eating a full human combo, his choices are now a) walk away with counterstrike on or b) try to fight.
Option a) Elise is in spider murdering him, when Counterstrike is about to go off Elise Rappels, causing it to miss, and putting her on top of jax again, she continues attacking him until she can't anymore, at which point she would Q him, go into human form and QW him, more than likely ending in him dying at some point there.
Option b) He activates Counterstrike, at which point Elise rappels, and avoids it for the duration, she comes down Q's him, activates W and is now out damaging him like mad, albeit for only a couple seconds, afterwards Jax would have a slight advantage in damage due to being able to Empower often. however Elise still wins the engagement due to having a better sustained damage with W and lings, as well as Q, should Jax turn to run Elise would go human, QW and Auto him.

Nothing is in Jax's favor in this.


so obviously you're unfamiliar with jax which makes me understand why you think it's so one sided. let me help you. 1) Jax never maxes Q first thats idiotic. 2) you max W first and it's cooldown isn't 10, its 7/6/5/4/3. 3)Jax doesnt have to wait the full two second for his stun to go off, he can activate the ability again whenever he wants to proc the stun.

so jax and elise are level 4. jax has 1q 2w 1e and elise has 2q 1w 1e. So how does this trade go down?

first, Jax will activate W and wait a few seconds then Q onto elise. this will do 215 dmg to her instantly. according to you she lands her stun 100% of the time, and then used her own Q W which does about 235 dmg to jax.

now the problem is this, all of elise's abilities are on cooldown so her only option is to spider form or flee because Jax will destroy her human form. Jax's W is already back up, he hasnt even used his E yet, and his and elises Q will CD at the same time.

Elise goes to spider form but jax can either double activate E for an insta-stun and 50 dmg and pop W again for another 140 before elise can do anything then retreat using Q, or use E to bait the rappel and run back toward tower hitting her with another 235 W>Q before you disengage. and he can just run away because even if shes in spider form he has higher MS.

Also Jax is using less mana, although his mana pool is also a bit smaller. the trades are even, and once Jax gets the edge from ult I think he edges her out. He just needs to play careful before 6. Not to mention this is a team game, and if elise is zoning jax that hard she will push to turret and get the **** ganked out of her. Jax has OP gank support.
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