Cleaver probably still needs to be nerfed

#31gkh5Posted 12/23/2012 10:22:40 AM
professor x posted...
I don't mind the cleaver on AD caster themselves, its that the debuff apply to all opponents which basically give a huge damage increase to your ADC. Its bad enough that ADC is only thing that matters past mid game, now its even more of the support babysit ADC, everybody else dives the enemy ADC, which team ADC dies first loses.

Either change the debuff so it only affect the person applying it (different version of LS), or make it so only autos and single target ability apply one stack with 1 sec cooldown. Basically champs like Talon can't just ult and suddenly your entire team lose 30% armor l0l.


I'm along this line of thinking. It's the AoE shred thats the biggest problem imo. Nobody's even mentioned Wukong...his **** is absolutely, completely broken right now with Black Cleaver lol. Everything melts in that ult. Everything. As soon as you get brutalizer you win lane and then as soon as you have cleaver and FM you will not lose a teamfight the rest of the game.

Same for Talon with his W and ult making it easy to get 4 very quick stacks on a team. It's the AoE shred making yourself and your ADC do near true damage to whoever you want on their team that is the problem.

But then again, if you make it single target then you just ruined the item pathing potential on a ton of AD casters. I like that I can build things like black cleaver, BotrK, and the other new items. They SHOULD be strong items. That's the point, so that its no longer some combo of BT, TF, GA, FM, Randuins, FH and Maw on every bruiser. Maybe they just need to nerf Panth and Talon, idk.
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#32VoidgolemPosted 12/23/2012 10:48:13 AM
From: BalanceNotLost | #021
Voidgolem posted...
joke's on you, it's back to 30% again on the PBE.

*makes another tally on Prophecy Monolith*


On an unrelated note, seeing people putting actions between asterisks makes various unpleasantries go through my head, some being "cancer", "weeaboo", "autism", "what the actual ****", and "why are people still using this", among others.


Calling people weeaboos on the LoL board. Oh lordy.
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#33BlackHole001Posted 12/23/2012 10:59:08 AM
g-cube_masta posted...
25% shred is just too much in combination with the armor penetration changes. They either have to mess around with the way penetration is done again, nerf cleaver or go through all the ad casters it breaks and tone down their numbers/ratios accordingly.

The amount of gold value of the armor they're piercing is too high.

At least that's what I think or how I feel at the moment. Seeing Black Cleaver Last Whisper in Kha'Zix' inventory makes me pee a little.


whaaa whaaa im a low elo baddie whine for nerfs moar
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#34AtomicCanolliPosted 12/23/2012 12:49:53 PM
Change it so the % shred is halved when applied by AoE abilities.
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#35DoctorEggmanPosted 12/23/2012 12:58:07 PM
What I don't like is kneejerk reactions to new meta choices just because its not the norm

Riot does all the S3 stuff to try and shake the meta up, and now we have people wanting the new picks to get nerfed?

Give it some time. Try picking some tanky people to counter the Kha/Panth mids, or something. Counterpick the counterpick.
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#36g-cube_masta(Topic Creator)Posted 12/23/2012 1:48:22 PM
From: Reaper_Minion | #019
From: g-cube_masta | Posted: 12/23/2012 2:18:17 PM | #017
From: Reaper_Minion | #016
From: g-cube_masta | Posted: 12/23/2012 1:59:00 PM | #014
this is how I would nerf it:


4% shred, 5 stacks cap total 20% shred.

3200 gold cost.


And maybe if that's not enough change it so that only single target abilities can apply a stack. Maybe.

Might as well remove the item.

lol if you think that

Very substantial nerf and the numbers aren't even that high to begin with. Also, limiting it to single target abilities might seem like a good nerf, but it's gonna effect way too many abilities.



I said maybe make the change to single targets on the condition that the number change doesn't effectively fix the problem.

And the numbers nerf is a warranted change. You guys don't understand how overpowered shred can be.

Here's 1 example. Renekton vs. a 200 armor target. Using his fury enhanced E (35% shred) with BC (25% shred) he can bring someone through shred alone to 97.5 armor (51.25% shred) BEFORE ANY OTHER ARMOR PENETRATION CALCULATIONS.

BEFORE.

OVER HALF THEIR ARMOR IS GONE BEFORE.

So now you have Last whisper that gets applied to that 97.5 (35% + mastery 8% = 40.2%) bringing them to 58.305. It is now that any flat penetration you have is applied.

Runes 12 arpen, Masteries 6, Black Cleaver 10

total of 28 bringing armor down to 30.305. So you brought a 200 armor target to 30 armor removing 170 gold's worth of armor in the process with 1 item. How much is 170 armor worth? Using Chain Vest as the baseline it's roughly 2650 gold. All that gold just stripped from your build.

200 armor will roughly reduce incoming physical damage by ~65% (roughly being the key word).

30 armor will reduce incoming physical damage by ~15%.

Do you see the drastic drop-off?

And remember, this is vs. a 200 armor target. The malphites, shens, amumus etc., Vs anyone with <150 armor you'll shred them to 15.729 armor using the same above calculations. This is dumb because champs like Renekton, Wukong, Xin Zhao and Jarvan have armor reduction in their kits too and stacking that armor reduction (although multiplicative) shreds people to nothing despite how much armor they bought. You end up taking essentially true damage.

Why is true damage a problem? Because before these champions (and the archeytpe of ad casters) were underpowered due to poor itemization choices so they were given good ratios (140% bonus AD etc., etc.,) so that they could build a little beefier but stay relevant (didn't work thus the item changes) or go glass cannon and at least explode something else before they did.

But now that they have a strong itemization option suddenly their ratios are stupid high with an item that's perfect for them. All this armor pen amplifies their damage while the medium amounts of ad they get are inflated by their high ratios.
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#37SoraOwnsAllPosted 12/23/2012 1:51:30 PM
buy HP
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#38g-cube_masta(Topic Creator)Posted 12/23/2012 1:55:12 PM
From: professor x | #018
I don't mind the cleaver on AD caster themselves, its that the debuff apply to all opponents which basically give a huge damage increase to your ADC. Its bad enough that ADC is only thing that matters past mid game, now its even more of the support babysit ADC, everybody else dives the enemy ADC, which team ADC dies first loses.

Either change the debuff so it only affect the person applying it (different version of LS), or make it so only autos and single target ability apply one stack with 1 sec cooldown. Basically champs like Talon can't just ult and suddenly your entire team lose 30% armor l0l.


Yeah the team utility is pretty insane with amplifying everyone's physical damage.


From: chaoshadou | #023
So you want to make ad casters utter garbage again?

From: DoctorEggman | #035
What I don't like is kneejerk reactions to new meta choices just because its not the norm

Riot does all the S3 stuff to try and shake the meta up, and now we have people wanting the new picks to get nerfed?

Give it some time. Try picking some tanky people to counter the Kha/Panth mids, or something. Counterpick the counterpick.


Kneejerk reaction? Utter garbage? 5% shred and adding 1 more stack to the cap so it takes them 1 auto/ability extra to ramp up KILLS this build/item?

Are you really going with that as your argument? This won't cripple them. This isn't a major nerf. It's an adjustment in the right direction.

I like Talon and was pretty choked when they nerfed him way back when. I don't mind these champions being viable or going mid, I mind when they are too strong and scale way too hard as assassins into late game just because one item offers way too much in terms of gold value. The utility of that %shred, if it could be measured in gold value, would be hilariously high because armor shred amplifies damage better than anything else in the game (aside from MR shred which does the same).

With 20% shred the calculations in my above post don't fluctuate all that much, it's the making them take 1 stack longer to get the full shred and slight reduction on overall shred that will make this easier to deal with. As it stands by the time Talon is on you or Pantheon E's or Renekton W's you're already at the full stacks of reduction.


From: BlackHole001 | #033
g-cube_masta posted...
25% shred is just too much in combination with the armor penetration changes. They either have to mess around with the way penetration is done again, nerf cleaver or go through all the ad casters it breaks and tone down their numbers/ratios accordingly.

The amount of gold value of the armor they're piercing is too high.

At least that's what I think or how I feel at the moment. Seeing Black Cleaver Last Whisper in Kha'Zix' inventory makes me pee a little.


whaaa whaaa im a low elo baddie whine for nerfs moar


Sick argument dude you provided a lot to this discussion you're definitely an intelligent and valued poster who people care to hear the opinion of.

Or, you know, the exact opposite of that.
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#39dennis941012Posted 12/23/2012 1:57:18 PM
From: g-cube_masta | #007
I know about the PBE changes


doesn't change the fact that I think that they need to address the fact that kha/panth/talon and the others are terrorizing ranked atm.


We need to have a chill period where you aren't forced into bans because things are too OP to overlook. We just came off of Rengar/Diana's reign of tyranny.

Would be nice to have a lull where it's just a "ban what you don't like playing because nothing is absurd atm"

I swear we've had periods like that before.


It wasn't a tyranny :<
Using akali gainst diana was fun way to get fed :O
Rengar eh he needed that nerf
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#40g-cube_masta(Topic Creator)Posted 12/23/2012 2:00:19 PM
From: SoraOwnsAll | #037
buy HP


HP is good but suffers from poke. When all you have is HP as a damage mitigator every time you lose HP to any kind of poke that HP you bought is gone for the time being.

So if you get poked to 1500-2000 health, you're still going to get one shot because your effective health is garbage since you don't have any mitigation for that health. Having high HP but still taking true damage is not going to help you much.

In addition to this it's easy to be poked because you don't have the resists to back up the HP so when they throw out that Rake or Spear Shot or Void Spikes you lose a lot of that HP and unless you're Mundo it's going to stay that way for a while and you're going to keep eating the poke.

The thought behind making it cost more was to delay it in a build slightly. You need time to build armor/health to counter that Black Cleaver once it is completed. It's really lame that as soon as it is done the armor that you bought isn't effective against it at all.

I'd make it cost more but then it'd be dumb if Black Cleaver cost more than Deathcap. I think 3200 is fair for the AD casers god item.

Even though AD god items have always cost way more than AP (Trinity 4200, Inf Edge 3800 etc.,). Them being casters makes it reasonable they have more caster level items.
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