Cleaver probably still needs to be nerfed

#41VoidgolemPosted 12/23/2012 3:01:00 PM
Not like AP haven't had near-perfect itemization for the last...ever.
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#42Village IdiotPosted 12/23/2012 3:08:54 PM
The changes to S3's items is ment to diversify builds, to go beyond the standard cookie-cutter builds.

Right now, it isn't happening because there isn't any point in not rushing BC for tops and AD Burst Mids.
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#43CovenantPosted 12/23/2012 3:20:12 PM
g-cube_masta posted...
Using Chain Vest as the baseline it's roughly 2650 gold. All that gold just stripped from your build.


And it cost Renekton 5135 gold to do it along with choosing to use his Fury on Slice & Dice, a bit of power from Slice & Dice's allocation that went towards armor reduction in design, and the opportunity cost of using armor penetration runes.

He does also get 90 AD, 250 health, and 10% cooldown reduction out of the deal, though.
#44g-cube_masta(Topic Creator)Posted 12/23/2012 3:36:41 PM
From: Voidgolem | #041
Not like AP haven't had near-perfect itemization for the last...ever.


AP has always had the best itemization because they had such a diversified pool of items with utility (Zhonya's) or straight damage (Deathcap) at the cost of tankyness (RoA) etc., etc.,

It's all decisions and there were enough options to make it where some people would go double doran's Abyssal, other dorans' into deathcap, others revolver into rylais, other roa opening etc.,

That's what the paths for all roles should be ideally. Very situational items that all have about the same power level give or take a bit.

From: Village Idiot | #042
The changes to S3's items is ment to diversify builds, to go beyond the standard cookie-cutter builds.

Right now, it isn't happening because there isn't any point in not rushing BC for tops and AD Burst Mids.


Yeah you do pretty much have to go BC first. The change I'm proposing won't change that, people will still do it, it will just be less powerful and easier to deal with.

From: Covenant | #043
g-cube_masta posted...
Using Chain Vest as the baseline it's roughly 2650 gold. All that gold just stripped from your build.


And it cost Renekton 5135 gold to do it along with choosing to use his Fury on Slice & Dice, a bit of power from Slice & Dice's allocation that went towards armor reduction in design, and the opportunity cost of using armor penetration runes.

He does also get 90 AD, 250 health, and 10% cooldown reduction out of the deal, though.


That gold cost is nothing when you factor in what all that arpen is doing for you.

5135 - 2650 = 2485 is the "effective" cost or how much it is netting you in total gold value in a given 1v1.

Since the changes to armor pen I use Renektons fury on E and W. It way amps your damage. Not worth not using it on E.

Arpen runes same as above, been using 6.8/12 on pretty much anyone that goes cleaver. It's slightly worse early w/ last hitting but once you have Brutalizer it is ridiculous and scales super well. Especially mid even if they have armor seals. Giving up ~8 ad is totally worth it. Hell doublelift is doing 6.8/12 on bot lane for Ezreal and stuff because of how good it is.

Plus there's champions that don't need fury to do this. Wukong Q, J4 Q, Xin passive etc.,

Even without the extra shred, for the champions that don't shred more than 25% it is a lot. Especially when comboed with last whisper because since the changes the penetrations happen in the most beneficial order possible, % reduc, flat reduc, % pen, flat pen.

Flat pen being at the end just kills when you can shred/penetrate so low through penetration alone.
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#45VoidgolemPosted 12/23/2012 3:42:34 PM
From: g-cube_masta | #044
AP has always had the best itemization because they had such a diversified pool of items with utility (Zhonya's) or straight damage (Deathcap) at the cost of tankyness (RoA) etc., etc.,

It's all decisions and there were enough options to make it where some people would go double doran's Abyssal, other dorans' into deathcap, others revolver into rylais, other roa opening etc.,

That's what the paths for all roles should be ideally. Very situational items that all have about the same power level give or take a bit.


'cept they all end with damage and durability regardless of midgame choices unless you make some truly questionable decisions.

You don't even have to decide between the two in a complete AP build, which frankly has always rubbed me the wrong way.

Eh.
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#46deoxxysPosted 12/23/2012 3:45:43 PM
Reaper_Minion posted...
From: g-cube_masta | Posted: 12/23/2012 1:59:00 PM | #014
this is how I would nerf it:


4% shred, 5 stacks cap total 20% shred.

3200 gold cost.


And maybe if that's not enough change it so that only single target abilities can apply a stack. Maybe.

Might as well remove the item.


yep so you want the cost of the item to go up then the stats to go down? right......
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#47gkh5Posted 12/23/2012 3:51:23 PM
Village Idiot posted...
The changes to S3's items is ment to diversify builds, to go beyond the standard cookie-cutter builds.

Right now, it isn't happening because there isn't any point in not rushing BC for tops and AD Burst Mids.


To be fair, it can be argued that most champs in every other role/champ archetype rushes 1 or 2 core items before branching out for the most part. ADC's get a BF sword item, burst AP's get Cap, supports get Aegis or Shurylea's, etc.

And as a person who plays predominantly top and jungle, the itemization past that core item or two is MUCH more unique which is awesome. Even on the various champs where black cleaver is now the first item (where before you might have gone BT or TF first), the itemization past that is much different depending on the champ and their inherent mobility/survivabilty. For example, whereas I used to build Renekton, Riven, and Talon pretty much exactly the same way, my build paths for those 3 are very different now.
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#48Blbmbr666Posted 12/23/2012 3:57:58 PM
I agree with da cube master. BC has honestly made this season feel stupidly boring for solo top. And mid to some extent.
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#49g-cube_masta(Topic Creator)Posted 12/23/2012 4:01:56 PM
From: Voidgolem | #045
From: g-cube_masta | #044
AP has always had the best itemization because they had such a diversified pool of items with utility (Zhonya's) or straight damage (Deathcap) at the cost of tankyness (RoA) etc., etc.,

It's all decisions and there were enough options to make it where some people would go double doran's Abyssal, other dorans' into deathcap, others revolver into rylais, other roa opening etc.,

That's what the paths for all roles should be ideally. Very situational items that all have about the same power level give or take a bit.


'cept they all end with damage and durability regardless of midgame choices unless you make some truly questionable decisions.

You don't even have to decide between the two in a complete AP build, which frankly has always rubbed me the wrong way.

Eh.


Are you complaining that AP carry itemization is OP?

Cause personally I don't think so, I'm just trying to understand what argument you're trying to make.

I feel like it's actually the most balanced. They're squishy early game low to medium damage, squishy mid game with high damage and then moderately durable with ranging damage depending on the type (susatined, burst, poke).

From: Blbmbr666 | #048
I agree with da cube master. BC has honestly made this season feel stupidly boring for solo top. And mid to some extent.


I feel like it's worse for mid than top but honestly laning phase isn't the problem. It's the scaling into teamfight phase.
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#50Blbmbr666Posted 12/23/2012 4:03:24 PM
From: g-cube_masta | #049
I feel like it's worse for mid than top but honestly laning phase isn't the problem. It's the scaling into teamfight phase.

True, AP carries like, hardly exist anymore cause LOL MID AD CASTERZ.

And I agree that the lategame scaling is stupid at best. I have almost stopped building armor all together because of it.
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