Jungle Fiddle start for S3

#1Xion350Posted 1/1/2013 2:13:50 PM
I've been starting Machete and two wards (To stave off counter jungles and invasion) Since he really doesn't need the extra healing from pots.

How has everyone else been starting?
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#2KarmicDragon1Posted 1/1/2013 2:14:30 PM
8 mana pots.
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#3Ferd_Da_BirdPosted 1/1/2013 2:36:27 PM
Machete 2 wards and a mana pot works or boots and a ward if you want better ganks but slower clears.
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#4EDumeyPosted 1/1/2013 2:39:33 PM
Is Amp tome start not at all useful for him? I figure that a lot of machete's damage comes from the true damage on autos that Fiddle doesn't use very much of.

Though I don't fiddle jungle, and I'd probably still take machete if I did. Spirit Stone items are too good.
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#5TriangularTwigPosted 1/1/2013 2:41:28 PM(edited)
Passive Unique Passive - Butcher: Damage dealt to monsters increased by 10%.
Unique Passive - Rend: Your basic attacks deal 10 bonus true damage to monsters.


Attacks deal 10 bonus damage, butcher procs on drain as well. increases your clear time and sustain on your drain
#6EDumeyPosted 1/1/2013 2:58:03 PM
TriangularTwig posted...
Passive Unique Passive - Butcher: Damage dealt to monsters increased by 10%.
Unique Passive - Rend: Your basic attacks deal 10 bonus true damage to monsters.


Attacks deal 10 bonus damage, butcher procs on drain as well. increases your clear time and sustain on your drain


The real math to find out is how much actual bonus damage is being added by that 10% on level 1 and 2 drain. 10% is not a ridiculous amount when the base damage isn't exactly super high to begin with.

Compare that to how much bonus dps is being added by the flat AP gain.

The butcher passive will scale better as the game goes on, making machete definitely not a bad choice on Fiddle, who already has good drag/baron times. But as a start, I would not be surprised to see Amp Tome be close to same clears and also providing actual stats that are useful in level 3-4 ganks where Fiddle is most effective.
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#7albinorhino004Posted 1/1/2013 3:50:26 PM
not doing maths or anything I've had many more successful games starting with amp than machete. I've felt hindered by spirit stone more often than not IMO.
I turn it into kages/boots my first back, and generally turn it into morellonomicon for the CDR but I've had very wild success using shard of true ice on top of a well timed ult (and the passive gold generation is helpful for continued warding etc)
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#8TriangularTwigPosted 1/1/2013 4:20:25 PM(edited)
Lets do some math.

At lvl 1 Drain does 60 + 40% of ability power per second. 40% of 20 is 8. 10% of 60 is 6.

Machete also adds 10 true damage per auto attack. Fiddle's base attack speed is 0.625. That's an extra 10 true damage every 0.625 seconds. Cross multiplying to get a ratio of damage per 1 second, that adds 16 true damage every second.

Amp tome
Drain: 60 + 8 / Auto attacks deal 73.52 damage per second

vs

Machete
Drain: 60 + 6 / Auto attacks deal 89.52 damage per second

Given how Fiddle barely relies on his auto attack for damage and cannot do them during his drain, I'd say that Amp tome is the superior choice because you can build it into something more useful earlier.

obviously the 10% number goes up as you increase in level, at lvl 2 drain does 90 magic damage per second. 10% of that is 9. It scales, but it only adds 3 more damage per second from lvl 1 to 2. It adds 3 extra damage per lvl. By the time your drain is lvl 5 it really won't matter that much. And this only applies to minions. My votes with the amp tome
#9Xion350(Topic Creator)Posted 1/1/2013 4:28:34 PM(edited)
I did a quick test of Amp tome VS Machete...

I cleared and hit level 4 at 3:55 with Machete, and 4:05 with amp tome.

You gain 'about' 10 damage on each tick of drain with amp tome, and get slightly less with Machete.

Clearing wolves also took one more drain with Amp tome than Machete since the auto attacks where dealing less damage. And I had less health after blue.

Of course this doesn't take into consideration the fact that you'll do more damage during ganks with an Amp tome. But early on as Fiddle you should be working with the lane to get the kill.

Don't underestimate the 10 true damage passive.
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#10EDumeyPosted 1/1/2013 5:38:43 PM
So both are viable, and I would argue that you'll eventually want the spirit stone eventually so you have regent once blue runs out.

I just notice that Fiddle is probably of the few that really can have a different start other than the dorans blade junglers. It really depends on whether you want to do an EARLY gank or not. If you're intending on immediately making a play, Amp Tome doesn't seem to set you back and gives you more damage. If you just want to farm and play it by ear, rushing machete and spirit stone sounds like the better option.
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