So Skarner is literally the best thing ever

#21Knight_Of_OrderPosted 1/22/2013 1:36:49 PM
AlmightyHamSandwich posted...
Knight_Of_Order posted...
In theory, yeah, the new items made him stronger, in practice, building him like that means he'll get bursted into oblivion by the enemy assassin/bruiser.


Bursted, yes, but not into oblivion, given that the items mentioned give him a good chunk of damage mitigation on top of W being amazing and Spirit Visage giving increased healing on top of that. As I said, he's a monster in teamfights, as it's highly likely that proper follow-up by Hecarim's team is going to ensure he outheals most of the damage being dealt to him. Even if he doesn't, the enemy team blowing most of its abilities on Hecarim still means a proper response results in an overall win.


Right, problem is that resistances are super weak (and expensive) against penetration atm, im not denying his TF potential, but building him in an optimal way (resistances + CDR) is weak atm, building him with the same derpy warmogs + sunfire cape + moar hp is superior yet it has poor synergy with him overall. Untill that changes, he'll stay weak.
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#22AlmightyHamSandwichPosted 1/22/2013 1:44:03 PM
Except building him in an optimal way (i.e. the build I've already mentioned) isn't weak and I've explained twice now why he, himself, isn't weak. He's a good jungler right now, with the total package of clear speed, ganks, and teamfights. He's strong in the mid-game and late-game and is, overall, a terrifying champion to deal with because there are very few teamcomps he doesn't compliment with his absurd amazingness at teamfights.
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#23Knight_Of_OrderPosted 1/22/2013 1:54:50 PM(edited)
AlmightyHamSandwich posted...
Except building him in an optimal way (i.e. the build I've already mentioned) isn't weak and I've explained twice now why he, himself, isn't weak. He's a good jungler right now, with the total package of clear speed, ganks, and teamfights. He's strong in the mid-game and late-game and is, overall, a terrifying champion to deal with because there are very few teamcomps he doesn't compliment with his absurd amazingness at teamfights.


And i've already mentioned why building him like that (which i even agreed to be the optimal way dont know why you're being defensive over it) is weak, but sure bro, go and rush the IBG and SV against the enemy Kha/Talon/Pantheon, they'll not only get their items first because of them laning + having cheaper core items, they'll just gib you because you dont have enough HP to survive their burst.

EDIT: I dont even know why you try to keep bringing up his late game, i already agreed that it was great, getting there is the problem, as with all late game champs.

Oh and the new jungle changes actually hurt Hec more than they helped, killing the big camps takes some time now.
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#24AlmightyHamSandwichPosted 1/22/2013 2:02:20 PM(edited)
Bloodthirster and Black Cleaver are not cheaper than IBG and SV, what the hell.

Also, you're putting Hecarim in a vacuum against three champions he's likely not even going to be fighting without assistance. Again, what the hell.

Hecarim clears camps just fine. Once more, what the hell.

So basically, you agree with all my main points but are clinging to Hecarim being weak despite my explaining how he isn't. I only ask again, what the hell.
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#25ArtosRCPosted 1/22/2013 2:09:10 PM
From: Knight_Of_Order | #011
Both Skarner and Hecarim are pretty weak atm.


http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lz1pxfelXt1qfjjak.gif
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#26Knight_Of_OrderPosted 1/22/2013 2:11:12 PM
AlmightyHamSandwich posted...
Bloodthirster and Black Cleaver are not cheaper than IBG and SV, what the hell.

Also, you're putting Hecarim in a vacuum against three champions he's likely not even going to be fighting without assistance. Again, what the hell.

Hecarim clears camps just fine. Once more, what the hell.


You keep dodging half my argument, that's cute, but i'll indulge you just because im having fun with this argument

IBG costs more that both BT and BC (and i'd really put LW over BT most of the time but w/e), SV is indeed cheaper but unless you're against a heavy AP team (very rare) you're just gimping yourself, the 400 gold difference is made up by the champion being in lane or even against you if we go with LW instead.

I was using some of the most popular champs as examples on why Hec is weaker, nothing more, nothing less. But lets say 5v5 teams, full AD teams (wih exception of jungler and maybe support) are common now, that already makes one of the core items sub par, rushing an IBG is a pretty bad choice overall because your procs will do little damage and you'll just get killed in skirmishes.

READING COMPREHENSION I SUMMON YOU! I never said Hecarim didnt clear "fine", but the jungle changes did hurt him, go ****ing ahead and deny me that outright, i dare you.
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Amid the turmoil and tumult of battle, there may be seeming disorder and yet no real disorder at all
Sun Tzu
#27AlmightyHamSandwichPosted 1/22/2013 2:28:49 PM(edited)
The half of your argument I'm "dodging" is largely irrelevant because a large portion of Hecarim's tankiness comes from the healing off his W. You keep ignoring that crucial part of his kit in favor of arguing the numbers on the items when, in reality, it totally makes him as a champion - Hecarim's effective HP with W up climbs through the roof in mid- and late-game teamfights, especially with Spirit Visage.

Those bruisers you say burst Hecarim down to nothing in seconds in a fight? Yeah, those very same bruisers on his are doing the same to the enemy team, and when they're fighting on Hecarim (easy to accomplish since Hecarim should be in the middle of fights anyway), at least 30% of that almighty Assassin Bruiser Burst Damage is healing Hecarim while he's taking damage.

Also, you said Hecarim takes time to clear camps now. He always has, actually. He's no slower than he was in S2.
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#28Knight_Of_OrderPosted 1/22/2013 2:46:58 PM
AlmightyHamSandwich posted...
The half of your argument I'm "dodging" is largely irrelevant because a large portion of Hecarim's tankiness comes from the healing off his W. You keep ignoring that crucial part of his kit in favor of arguing the numbers on the items when, in reality, it totally makes him as a champion - Hecarim's effective HP with W up climbs through the roof in mid- and late-game teamfights, especially with Spirit Visage.

Those bruisers you say burst Hecarim down to nothing in seconds in a fight? Yeah, those very same bruisers on his are doing the same to the enemy team, and when they're fighting on Hecarim (easy to accomplish since Hecarim should be in the middle of fights anyway), at least 30% of that almighty Assassin Bruiser Burst Damage is healing Hecarim while he's taking damage.

Also, you said Hecarim takes time to clear camps now. He always has, actually. He's no slower than he was in S2.


Here's a little secret, Hecarim is super weak to burst since it negates his W completely, something AD casters are great at is doing huge burst...see what im getting at? Yeah of course not since i've been saying it since the beggining yet you dont listen.

Difference being that since you went full resistance build you're much easy to kill than the enemy Cho Gath, Mundo, Lee, Amumu, Mao who was smart and went with Warmog, Sunfire whatever, congrats now you're dead and the enemy is still alive!

Hecarim cleared the jungle at the same time as S2 (thanks Stonewall) at 3:40, that was at the beggining of S3, now that the big monsters have more HP it takes longer to clear them, you cannot dispute that , and its pathetic that you keep trying to.
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Amid the turmoil and tumult of battle, there may be seeming disorder and yet no real disorder at all
Sun Tzu
#29mutation10101Posted 1/22/2013 2:54:03 PM
Not right now he isn't. But once Thresh comes out he will be.
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#30AlmightyHamSandwichPosted 1/22/2013 3:03:44 PM
Hecarim still clears in the 3:40-3:50 range. I don't actually know what you're trying to get at there.

You're putting Hecarim into a vacuum again. He's not "super weak" to burst, at worst he's average against it. Hecarim isn't paper-thin. His entire load of resistances don't simply vanish simply because one or two champions on the enemy team has a Black Cleaver. Aside from that, it's not a given that Hecarim will be the one to absorb the burst of any of these hypothetical champions, or if they do, it'll actually kill him outright.

At any rate, this argument is tiresome. I know how exactly strong Hecarim is. You keep up that denial or whatever.
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Miami Heat: 2012 NBA Champions | Other Miami Sports: LOL
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