you can now deny Towers

#41SorrySleepingPosted 2/2/2013 8:53:08 PM
From: PrizmSlash | #013
SorrySleeping posted...
From: protomole64 | #004
ITT: people who don't know how tower denial works.


We assume it works the same as minion denying in DotA2 unless you have another reference. You can 100-0 a creep in DotA/2, has to be the same thing for a tower.


So its people like you who don't know a thing about dota2 but continue to badmouth it anyway.


I don't badmouth DotA2, but okay.
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#42CrossfiyahPosted 2/3/2013 12:01:19 AM
This topic.

Hilarious.
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#43HyperDragonPosted 2/3/2013 5:50:46 AM
Covenant posted...
funkyfritter posted...

This idea actually discourages pushing after anything but an ace. If enemies are around, they can minimize your rewards. If you win the fight but aren't strong enough to drive them away from their tower, then the expected gain for pushing a tower is reduced due to the chance that you will get denied.


yes now actually go watch some pro games of DotA 2 and you will find that everything you just said is completely wrong.

People push in DotA 2 50000000000x more than they do in League.
#44gfshynoblPosted 2/3/2013 6:23:10 AM
how is denying a stupid mechanic?
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#45HyperDragonPosted 2/3/2013 6:50:56 AM
gfshynobl posted...
how is denying a stupid mechanic?


well you see zileas said so and
#46bast999Posted 2/3/2013 7:59:45 AM
SolKarellen posted...
SexualPizza posted...
Nope. Wasn't aware, and doesn't surprise me. Still stupid. Might as well just deny the Nexus. Or better yet, just deny denies entirely so the game can actually make sense.


The Ancient cannot be denied.

You can technically deny a deny by denying a creep a teammate was about to deny.


League of Denied
Deniers of Newerth
300 Deniers
Defence of the Denied
Defence of the Denied 2
Smite: Deny ver
Super Monday Night Denial
Denialnauts
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This but unironically.
#47ThreeLockPosted 2/3/2013 10:10:41 AM
bast999 posted...
League of Denied
Deniers of Newerth
300 Deniers
Defence of the Denied
Defence of the Denied 2
Smite: Deny ver
Super Monday Night Denial
Denialnauts


Denygod.
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#48bast999Posted 2/3/2013 12:38:14 PM
How does one deny the Nexus anyway? Do you hit it yourself and still lose, or surrender and lose anyway? I think the only way to deny the Nexus is by the winning team surrendering as the losing Nexus is exploding, which we never see done outside of lolnormals.
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This but unironically.
#49SlaynPosted 2/3/2013 12:41:09 PM
We have denying. In ARAMs people often sucide in to turrets so then can B and buy stuff.
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#50Suffer_NotPosted 2/4/2013 12:37:19 PM
gfshynobl posted...
how is denying a stupid mechanic?


People who don't know anything about Dota will tell you that it is counter intuitive to kill your own allies. What they fail to realize is that all alliances in Dota are by coercion and not by choice. Heroes don't really want to work for the Ancients and they tend to hate the other heroes as well. They don't shed any tears in killing the corrupted Radiant or Dire creatures who have long since lost their humanity, nor do they really care about felling a poisoned hero when they'll just come back later without giving gold to the enemy.

It's a far more practical world that League's. In the League people fight for politics. In Dota they fight because an elder god motif is forcing them to against their will.


People who know more about the game's structure and design probably aren't using the word "stupid", unless they have a vendetta against the game or something. denying isn't stupid at all, and is a perfectly fine mechanic in Dota. It just wouldn't work in League.

In Dota, wave control is a big deal. The Safe Lane for each side has a significant advantage in lane control in that they can deny creeps and they have access to the jungle in order to pull creeps, while the hard lane can only hop to deny creeps in order to keep them closer to his tower. If denying were not a mechanic, it would be far more difficult for the hard lane to have any chance of winning because they would not have any methods for controlling their creep line.

League's safe lane is the mid lane, with the bot and top lanes being more or less equivalent outside of stone bro shenanigans. Denying is therefore not a necessary mechanic in order to balance the lanes.

In Dota, it's very hard to maintain an outer turret if you do not have an advantage the further the game progresses. As time goes on, creep waves grow in number as more melee and ranged creeps join the fight in addition to gaining stat increases. This increases creep wave momentum, which naturally helps to push towers down. If your team is losing, a weakened tower becomes a serious flaw in your defenses as you are forced to send people to defend it more frequently as the game progresses. It becomes a liability, and denying the tower for significantly reduced gold gain is a far more preferable option to consistently burning TP scrolls and time defending it to no really initiative of your enemies.

Towers in League take a lot longer to fall on their own because creeps don't drastically increase in power. It requires a lot less effort to equalize or push a wave from a defended tower, and the map control you maintain from that is a much bigger deal because jungle buffs spawn on both sides of your jungle rather than most of the jungle gold being located on one side. There are a lot of items in Dota that can help in pushing a wave, and many of them are more accessible than the items in League. Ring of Basilius can help a support push a wave for a tiny price tag, while the equivalent Banner of Command is a tier 3 item and takes a lot longer to get to. Alternatively, you have to dedicate someone on your team to split push, which carries it's own consequences.


So basically, Denying is not a required mechanic in League, and it does not give your team any significant advantages compared to Dota. The game just is not setup for Denying to work, which is why it was removed (Gangplank).


I now return to my lunch, confident in the knowledge that the only people who will read this will already understand it since no one else cares enough to bother.
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