Why does Riot seem so...

#1TheSteelPhoenixPosted 3/2/2013 8:14:35 PM
.. intelligent and skilled at the design and balancing of games when a red post the reasoning for something, but in practice they seem to make terrible choices on balance otherwise?
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lol
#2DartkunPosted 3/2/2013 8:17:31 PM
Because saying "We hear your problems and we want to fix them" is easier than actually fixing them. Use generic words that sound good.
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#3ineedaname88Posted 3/2/2013 8:27:40 PM
"We're going to take a look at things a learn how we can better balance X." Nerfs X so hard even Rengar feels bad.
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Go big or go home broke. Bro-ski.
#4TheSteelPhoenix(Topic Creator)Posted 3/2/2013 9:17:58 PM
both good answers.
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lol
#5YourJanissaryPosted 3/2/2013 9:31:10 PM
TheSteelPhoenix posted...
.. intelligent and skilled at the design and balancing of games when a red post the reasoning for something, but in practice they seem to make terrible choices on balance otherwise?


Because they don't give us their explanations as to why these bad changes were made. When we get a well reasoned explanation, they tend to be good explanations. Not always, but generally.

For example, I don't know why they thought a stacking armor debuff item would in any way be super useful for bursty AD champions. Stacking by definition takes time and burst champions by definition need to do all of their damage in a very short period of time. Yes, those champions were OP as hell when cleaver was in the game, but that was because cleaver in general was just poorly thought out.

What would make more sense is an item that gives CDR, AD, and Spell Vamp. We got that in vandamm's pillager (albeit it was severely lacking in the AD department) but that got removed whereas black cleaver did not get removed.


When we do an actual analysis of AD casters, we look at what items they were getting before, which was stacking bloodthirsters. Why did they stack bloodthirsters? Because it gives the most AD of any item in the game. This means that their ability scaling is what they cared about the most, thus, whatever item we give them must give either a ton of AD or improve how their abilities scale.

What else was good on them? Brutalizer. Brutalizer gave armor penetration, AD, and CDR. CDR is obviously good because it means they get to use their abilities more often and AD + ArPen means those abilities do more damage. Awesome.

Now let's analyze a way to make this item good for AD burst casters but not AD carries or bruisers. Well, since they rely heavily on their abilities to deal damage, we could give them spell vamp instead of life steal. Bruisers and ADCs tend to deal a lot of damage from autoattacks whereas these champions do not. Thus, spellvamp is a unique point of itemization that can limit the effectiveness of this item to the intended champion group.

This sort of logical inference leads me to design something like this:

AD Caster Item
Brutalizer + Pickaxe + 800 gold
50 AD
15 Armor Penetration
10% CDR
20% Spell Vamp
Unique Passive: Your abilities that scale with attack damage receive an additional 50% of your bonus attack damage as physical damage.

Now this is probably not balanced but from a design perspective it fits the role we want without really giving more potential to champions outside the intent than those inside the intent. AD carries do not want this item, bruisers probably don't want this item over other options thus this item will most likely be purchased primarily by AD casters, the intended champion group.

I don't think the design of this item was that difficult, but perhaps Riot had other plans with regards to the design of black cleaver and the removal of vandamm's pillager.
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#6TheSteelPhoenix(Topic Creator)Posted 3/2/2013 10:08:16 PM
I think that passive would need it's numbers tweaked, because essentially adding .5 ad ratio to everything that has an AD ratio would make even carries or bruisers capable of becoming insane assassin's.

Also if I recall, the reason spell vamp wasn't that big of deal was because assassins won't really see more survivablity from it. They do all their damage upfront, hopefully when they have high health already. All it really would be was another bruiser item in disguised (renekton or garen would be absolutely obscene with a lot of spell vamp for example).
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lol
#7HyperTailsManPosted 3/2/2013 10:23:00 PM
TheSteelPhoenix posted...
I think that passive would need it's numbers tweaked, because essentially adding .5 ad ratio to everything that has an AD ratio would make even carries or bruisers capable of becoming insane assassin's.

Also if I recall, the reason spell vamp wasn't that big of deal was because assassins won't really see more survivablity from it. They do all their damage upfront, hopefully when they have high health already. All it really would be was another bruiser item in disguised (renekton or garen would be absolutely obscene with a lot of spell vamp for example).


It's not .5 unless the original scaling was 1.0. If the original scaling was .2, it would now be .3, .5 turns to 7.5, 1.0 to 1.5, etc.
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#8YourJanissaryPosted 3/2/2013 10:46:13 PM(edited)
HyperTailsMan posted...
TheSteelPhoenix posted...
I think that passive would need it's numbers tweaked, because essentially adding .5 ad ratio to everything that has an AD ratio would make even carries or bruisers capable of becoming insane assassin's.

Also if I recall, the reason spell vamp wasn't that big of deal was because assassins won't really see more survivablity from it. They do all their damage upfront, hopefully when they have high health already. All it really would be was another bruiser item in disguised (renekton or garen would be absolutely obscene with a lot of spell vamp for example).


It's not .5 unless the original scaling was 1.0. If the original scaling was .2, it would now be .3, .5 turns to 7.5, 1.0 to 1.5, etc.


Since it's 50% of your bonus AD, it works independent of what the bonus of the original skill was.

In any case, the item only serves as an example of an item that would have significantly higher utility for AD casters than other champions.
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There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who know about binary, those who don't, and those who didn't realize this joke is in ternary.
#9TheSteelPhoenix(Topic Creator)Posted 3/2/2013 10:37:52 PM
ahhh got it, i read it wrong.

That actually makes a ton of sense. The assassins (high ratios) would benefit far more then others.

What about ezreal though? it feels like it would be really powerful on him, or draven for that matter.
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lol
#10Sid_IcarusPosted 3/2/2013 10:40:00 PM
Because regardless of anything they do balance-wise, or anything-wise really, there's always gonna be a ton of people vocally complaining no matter what.
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