Why does Riot seem so...

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2 years ago#11
I don't think people ive Riot enough credit for the balance changes they make. Do remember that you all are playing a free MOBA game here. Release TF and Xin Zhao are gone, and they put forth the effort to actually even LOOK at things that are blatantly broken.

UMvC3 got 1 real significant patch where they rmoved Wolverines infinite. Afterwards, a plethora of infinites wre found on many, many characters. Did they bother to patch it? Nope.

You guys have got it good, stop being babies.
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2 years ago#12
From: YourJanissary | #005
TheSteelPhoenix posted...
.. intelligent and skilled at the design and balancing of games when a red post the reasoning for something, but in practice they seem to make terrible choices on balance otherwise?


Because they don't give us their explanations as to why these bad changes were made. When we get a well reasoned explanation, they tend to be good explanations. Not always, but generally.

For example, I don't know why they thought a stacking armor debuff item would in any way be super useful for bursty AD champions. Stacking by definition takes time and burst champions by definition need to do all of their damage in a very short period of time. Yes, those champions were OP as hell when cleaver was in the game, but that was because cleaver in general was just poorly thought out.

What would make more sense is an item that gives CDR, AD, and Spell Vamp. We got that in vandamm's pillager (albeit it was severely lacking in the AD department) but that got removed whereas black cleaver did not get removed.


When we do an actual analysis of AD casters, we look at what items they were getting before, which was stacking bloodthirsters. Why did they stack bloodthirsters? Because it gives the most AD of any item in the game. This means that their ability scaling is what they cared about the most, thus, whatever item we give them must give either a ton of AD or improve how their abilities scale.

What else was good on them? Brutalizer. Brutalizer gave armor penetration, AD, and CDR. CDR is obviously good because it means they get to use their abilities more often and AD + ArPen means those abilities do more damage. Awesome.

Now let's analyze a way to make this item good for AD burst casters but not AD carries or bruisers. Well, since they rely heavily on their abilities to deal damage, we could give them spell vamp instead of life steal. Bruisers and ADCs tend to deal a lot of damage from autoattacks whereas these champions do not. Thus, spellvamp is a unique point of itemization that can limit the effectiveness of this item to the intended champion group.

This sort of logical inference leads me to design something like this:

AD Caster Item
Brutalizer + Pickaxe + 800 gold
50 AD
15 Armor Penetration
10% CDR
20% Spell Vamp
Unique Passive: Your abilities that scale with attack damage receive an additional 50% of your bonus attack damage as physical damage.

Now this is probably not balanced but from a design perspective it fits the role we want without really giving more potential to champions outside the intent than those inside the intent. AD carries do not want this item, bruisers probably don't want this item over other options thus this item will most likely be purchased primarily by AD casters, the intended champion group.

I don't think the design of this item was that difficult, but perhaps Riot had other plans with regards to the design of black cleaver and the removal of vandamm's pillager.

Corki Ezreal Cait MF Varus Draven Vayne probably any ADC would enjoy that item.. Tumble/Axes scaling off of the bonus AD by an additional 50% would be ridic. Corki/Ez/Graves with spell vamp would suck
2 years ago#13
Earthbound360 posted...
I don't think people ive Riot enough credit for the balance changes they make. Do remember that you all are playing a free MOBA game here. Release TF and Xin Zhao are gone, and they put forth the effort to actually even LOOK at things that are blatantly broken.

UMvC3 got 1 real significant patch where they rmoved Wolverines infinite. Afterwards, a plethora of infinites wre found on many, many characters. Did they bother to patch it? Nope.

You guys have got it good, stop being babies.


Says Karma 2 years later.

She does exist you know.
2 years ago#14
I think it was Icsulla that said like "90% of the time, their balancing is fine but it's that 10% that makes you go wtf?"

think the 90 should be lower but yeah, their balance changes are reeeaaally weird sometimes
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2 years ago#15
Earthbound360 posted...
I don't think people ive Riot enough credit for the balance changes they make. Do remember that you all are playing a free MOBA game here. Release TF and Xin Zhao are gone, and they put forth the effort to actually even LOOK at things that are blatantly broken.

UMvC3 got 1 real significant patch where they rmoved Wolverines infinite. Afterwards, a plethora of infinites wre found on many, many characters. Did they bother to patch it? Nope.

You guys have got it good, stop being babies.


Because beating Capcom in terms of balance is an achievement.

And yes, the game is getting better. It's definitely gotten better. It's just some changes REALLY puzzle me. Do you remember the initial jungle remake?

The one that everyone in the community absolutely hated?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUgIZCij-dw

The one that the pros said would destroy the game because it would force the jungle to be absolutely useless and Riot reverted pretty quickly?

Yeah. Riot has their issues when it comes to understanding game balance. If you think that's whining, I don't know what to say. The company that has the number 1 played game doesn't know what they are doing sometimes.
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2 years ago#16
No, as much as I loved Pillager, keeping that item in the game would've been bad design. It's always been League of Bruisers and an item like Pillager benefitted bruisers more than AD Carries or Casters.
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