HIgh vs low skill balancing

#1TheSteelPhoenixPosted 4/7/2013 7:19:32 PM
I'm glad someone who (at least appears to me) is plugged into the social scene of LoL has pointed this out.

http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/hashinshin/23845-nasus-should-never-have-been-made-a-jungler

TL:DR after star section, I know how you guys are.

***********

I cannot find it, but I recall Riot saying that they don't balance champions for variable skill, and that they instead try to make every champ strong based on the performances of perfect play.

I explained to a friend one day, a very common concept in games with initialized option sets (i.e. choosing different characters/races/etc, there is more to that term but for the sake of keeping it simple, that's what it essentially means), is that you make characters that are for beginners, and characters for veterans, how? Very simply, you balance the effectiveness of a option with its chance of success. You find a ratio that you think is acceptable, and make sure every option available fits within this ratio, and change the ratio based on how skill intensive you want that option to be.

What does this mean in league? It means that the high chance of success a move has, the lower its effectiveness should be. The outcome of "beginner champs" and "skilled champs" organically results.

If one champ has a skill shot that a rookie might land 50% of the time, and a second champ has a directed shot that hits 100% of the time, in theory for it to be balanced at this level, the first champs skill should hit twice as hard. That way it evens out.

Of course this means now that, as the players get better, and can land it more reliably than 50% of the time, they will find the first champ is strictly better. If they can land 90% of the hits, but it hits twice as hard, its a far more effective champ than the second champ.

So naturally you don't balance it for the lowest level, you balance it for a middle level of skill. Maybe balance it so that they are equal at about 80% accuracy. At this point the first champs skill should be only a be a quarter more powerful.

This way that as you are new to the game, there are options you can choose that let you stand a chance against other players (this way you aren't discouraged because you are floundering around so badly that you can't even play the game meaningfully), but then there are options that let you grow as a player and grow into.

Side benefit: this also lets you be more creative in mechanics. You can make as interesting or complex mechanics as you want because, through power balancing, make it rewarding or not.

**************

Riot doesn't balance in regards to effort input, so we have a game where basically even really good players are not rewarded for any better capabilities of the game, so its better to just pick the easy to use champs because you will do just as well as the more difficult champs.
---
Cyber Troopers Virtual-On World Champion
#2YourJanissaryPosted 4/7/2013 7:51:52 PM
I think all champions should be roughly equal in skill requirement. if they had been designed this way from the start these problems wouldn't exist as they do now.

people will say "but what about the noobs? won't they have a hard time doing stuff?" you have to remember that all the other noobs will be playing super inefficiently as well.
---
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who know about binary, those who don't, and those who didn't realize this joke is in ternary.
#3AnubisGhostPosted 4/7/2013 8:01:18 PM
"So naturally you don't balance it for the lowest level, you balance it for a middle level of skill. Maybe balance it so that they are equal at about 80% accuracy. At this point the first champs skill should be only a be a quarter more powerful"



how would a directed attack hit 80% of the time? I'm sorry but I'm not playing kass to miss my Q 20% of the time to "make it fair"
#4VulgusRuinaPosted 4/7/2013 8:04:38 PM
AnubisGhost posted...
"So naturally you don't balance it for the lowest level, you balance it for a middle level of skill. Maybe balance it so that they are equal at about 80% accuracy. At this point the first champs skill should be only a be a quarter more powerful"



how would a directed attack hit 80% of the time? I'm sorry but I'm not playing kass to miss my Q 20% of the time to "make it fair"


I don't think he means that Kass's Q will miss twenty percent of the time, but that the damage would be balanced around eighty percent.
---
Gamertag: a Quiet Cactus -I main; MK: Subzero-Working on: Nightwolf, Kabal -Goal: Play each character very well.
#5AnubisGhostPosted 4/7/2013 8:05:41 PM
VulgusRuina posted...
AnubisGhost posted...
"So naturally you don't balance it for the lowest level, you balance it for a middle level of skill. Maybe balance it so that they are equal at about 80% accuracy. At this point the first champs skill should be only a be a quarter more powerful"



how would a directed attack hit 80% of the time? I'm sorry but I'm not playing kass to miss my Q 20% of the time to "make it fair"


I don't think he means that Kass's Q will miss twenty percent of the time, but that the damage would be balanced around eighty percent.



Accuracy, he said accuracy. meaning the attack actually misses every once in a while
#6SalvatorePosted 4/7/2013 8:06:03 PM
From: YourJanissary | #002
I think all champions should be roughly equal in skill requirement. if they had been designed this way from the start these problems wouldn't exist as they do now.

people will say "but what about the noobs? won't they have a hard time doing stuff?" you have to remember that all the other noobs will be playing super inefficiently as well.


I think a better way of doing it would be to make more complex champions more versatile. So, in a straight-up fight with perfect play Nooblord-the-Duelist could match Epic Dave the Almighty, but Nooblord would begin to break down on transition into teamfights while Epic Dave can still be effective.
---
Please don't go. The drones need you. They look up to you.
#7TheSteelPhoenix(Topic Creator)Posted 4/7/2013 8:06:51 PM
AnubisGhost posted...
"So naturally you don't balance it for the lowest level, you balance it for a middle level of skill. Maybe balance it so that they are equal at about 80% accuracy. At this point the first champs skill should be only a be a quarter more powerful"



how would a directed attack hit 80% of the time? I'm sorry but I'm not playing kass to miss my Q 20% of the time to "make it fair"


I'm sorry I was unclear. I meant balance it in our fictitious game so that it was balanced when the first champs skill shot was being played by a player who's skill allowed for 80% reliability. So a beginner would find the directed attack (not skill shot) champ more powerful (because the skill shot was only a quarter more effective but half as reliable), medium skilled players would find them about equal, and the strong player would find the skill shot champ better (because landing the skill shot is not a problem for him, so even though it isn't guaranteed, its close enough to guaranteed that the higher power makes it strictly better).

So in this case, if someone else had a skill shot that also had a silence, ceteris parabis, in our game that move should be about 25% more powerful than kass', to make up for the fact it can't be hit every single time. In real league I have no idea what the number should be as I have no hard data on this, but you get the general idea.
---
Cyber Troopers Virtual-On World Champion
#8VulgusRuinaPosted 4/7/2013 8:08:22 PM
AnubisGhost posted...
VulgusRuina posted...
AnubisGhost posted...
"So naturally you don't balance it for the lowest level, you balance it for a middle level of skill. Maybe balance it so that they are equal at about 80% accuracy. At this point the first champs skill should be only a be a quarter more powerful"



how would a directed attack hit 80% of the time? I'm sorry but I'm not playing kass to miss my Q 20% of the time to "make it fair"


I don't think he means that Kass's Q will miss twenty percent of the time, but that the damage would be balanced around eighty percent.



Accuracy, he said accuracy. meaning the attack actually misses every once in a while


Lol oops then! Misread it! I do apologize, and then also agree with you on the targeted issue. Targets should hit. I believes the damage should be balanced, not the accuracy. Or else Panth mains are gonna get mad
---
Gamertag: a Quiet Cactus -I main; MK: Subzero-Working on: Nightwolf, Kabal -Goal: Play each character very well.
#9AnubisGhostPosted 4/7/2013 8:09:22 PM
VulgusRuina posted...
AnubisGhost posted...
VulgusRuina posted...
AnubisGhost posted...
"So naturally you don't balance it for the lowest level, you balance it for a middle level of skill. Maybe balance it so that they are equal at about 80% accuracy. At this point the first champs skill should be only a be a quarter more powerful"



how would a directed attack hit 80% of the time? I'm sorry but I'm not playing kass to miss my Q 20% of the time to "make it fair"


I don't think he means that Kass's Q will miss twenty percent of the time, but that the damage would be balanced around eighty percent.



Accuracy, he said accuracy. meaning the attack actually misses every once in a while


Lol oops then! Misread it! I do apologize, and then also agree with you on the targeted issue. Targets should hit. I believes the damage should be balanced, not the accuracy. Or else Panth mains are gonna get mad


I agree
#10TheSteelPhoenix(Topic Creator)Posted 4/7/2013 8:10:37 PM
AnubisGhost posted...
VulgusRuina posted...
AnubisGhost posted...
VulgusRuina posted...
AnubisGhost posted...
"So naturally you don't balance it for the lowest level, you balance it for a middle level of skill. Maybe balance it so that they are equal at about 80% accuracy. At this point the first champs skill should be only a be a quarter more powerful"



how would a directed attack hit 80% of the time? I'm sorry but I'm not playing kass to miss my Q 20% of the time to "make it fair"


I don't think he means that Kass's Q will miss twenty percent of the time, but that the damage would be balanced around eighty percent.



Accuracy, he said accuracy. meaning the attack actually misses every once in a while


Lol oops then! Misread it! I do apologize, and then also agree with you on the targeted issue. Targets should hit. I believes the damage should be balanced, not the accuracy. Or else Panth mains are gonna get mad


I agree


You misread what I wrote. check my second post.
---
Cyber Troopers Virtual-On World Champion