Why lifesteal doesn't counter thornmail

#1PrintScreenKeyPosted 5/21/2013 2:04:35 AM
People say "I can build more lifesteal so thornmail is useless". Wrong.
Thornmail damage is calculated before armor, whilst lifesteal is calculated after armor.
Therefore, thornmail damage will remain constant regardless of the amount of armor you have.
The only variable is the AD and MR of the enemy.
The higher the AD of the enemy, the more damage he'll take.
The higher the MR of the enemy the less damage he takes.

Here is the dilemma for the ADCs.
They can build MR but that will mean their auto attacks won't hurt as much.
They can build lifesteal but by stacking more armor you are diminishing their lifesteal.
Meanwhile your thornmail damage will increase because they will have more AD as AD accompanies lifesteal items.


TL;DR LIFESTEAL DOESN'T COUNTER THORNMAIL.
#2TheSteelPhoenixPosted 5/21/2013 2:26:29 AM(edited)
I never knew that about the pre-post calculations. I never understood why people thought it countered it, any actual playing of the game would demonstrate otherwise. I've seen ADC's kill themselves just with auto attacks on tanky targets, even with a lifesteal.

Lol no you didn't, not at first, you did it in an edit. See how sometimes you don't notice something in a post you already read?
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#3MindersPosted 5/21/2013 2:12:55 AM
Well, it doesn't outright counter it but there's a difference in taking 30% damage returned and just taking 25%. Now I don't know how much the difference would be with a lot of lifesteal. Also, don't forget that a lof of champs that build lifesteal also tend to have at least some ArPen.
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#4supershadonicPosted 5/21/2013 2:19:15 AM(edited)
People are meta sheeps. Thornmail is still broken. Its not even funny. Thornmail even calculates blind damage. I tried it on Teemo. Blinded AD carry, he kept missing me but still got damaged.

And its hilariously broken on AP Yi and AP Xin against any auto attackers. Cuz you keep healing and they keep getting free undeserved damage.

Also try on lategame Ryze with spellvamp. Not even the most fed Vayne can kill you.

As for countering, you need full 2 BTS or atleast half filled BTs for total of 40% LS with Last Whisperer.... but then again that's not a proper counter. thornmail costs only 2180 while they cost 2K+3K+3K.

However, important note. You can't go thornmail in Ranked games. Reason? Cuz you need to waste your money on HP more. The only one you can gaurenteed return damage to is AD carry. Rest can be a teamcomp that doesn't rely much on AA such as top Elise or Pantheon, mid AD and AP mages, supports... and junglers like Lee who use more abilities. You need dem Mogs and Sunfires.
#5Fenrir the WolfPosted 5/21/2013 2:22:38 AM(edited)
So I guess the best item against a Thornmail user (after LW) is Mercurial Scimitar
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#6SpacefrisianPosted 5/21/2013 2:22:02 AM(edited)
Lifesteal + spirit visage

There is your thornmail counter. And before you shoot it down i suggest you try it out first, Thornmails passive deals magic damage.
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#7supershadonicPosted 5/21/2013 2:21:32 AM
Spacefrisian posted...
Lifesteal + spirit visage

There is your thornmail counter.


That depends on who you are. As Warwick, fair enough but I don't want Spirit Visage as Ashe.
#8SpacefrisianPosted 5/21/2013 2:23:11 AM
supershadonic posted...
Spacefrisian posted...
Lifesteal + spirit visage

There is your thornmail counter.


That depends on who you are. As Warwick, fair enough but I don't want Spirit Visage as Ashe.


I said try before you argue otherwise.
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#9Shadow EdgePosted 5/21/2013 2:32:47 AM
From: Spacefrisian | #006
Lifesteal + spirit visage

How much do these cost compared to Thornmail?
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#10TheSteelPhoenixPosted 5/21/2013 2:34:49 AM
im going to assume when people say LW they are referring only to countering the 100 armor, and not the passive, because the passive is unaffected by armor pen.
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