FIgured out how to jungle hecarim despite the nerfs

#31Frost_shock_FTWPosted 6/12/2013 12:36:24 PM
I left out the level 1 (I guess 2) spells since the TC is advocating high burst damage. Technically getting off two level 2 Qs helps a reasonable amount, so I'll include them.

In the 2.4 second engagement case, if we add the level 2 spells then E does a bit better, assuming you can trigger the full damage bonus. I'm being very generous by assuming the first E will do maximum travel damage.

Max Q: (2 Qs + 1 E) = 450 base + 2.2 bonus AD

Max E: (2 Qs + 1 E) = 550 base + 2.2 bonus AD

At 4.2 seconds you get another Q.

Max Q: (3 Qs + 1 E) = 650 base + 2.8 bonus AD

Max E: (3 Qs + 1 E) = 645 base + 2.8 bonus AD

So you've completely gimped your clear to have 100 more damage after 2.4 seconds. If you're ganking bot lane, you can only direct this damage onto one person. Maxing E first is only helpful if you find your opponents constantly escaping with less than 100 HP after 2.4 seconds, which shouldn't be happening that frequently.
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#32omega bahumat(Topic Creator)Posted 6/12/2013 12:55:26 PM
Frost_shock_FTW posted...
I left out the level 1 (I guess 2) spells since the TC is advocating high burst damage. Technically getting off two level 2 Qs helps a reasonable amount, so I'll include them.

In the 2.4 second engagement case, if we add the level 2 spells then E does a bit better, assuming you can trigger the full damage bonus. I'm being very generous by assuming the first E will do maximum travel damage.

Max Q: (2 Qs + 1 E) = 450 base + 2.2 bonus AD

Max E: (2 Qs + 1 E) = 550 base + 2.2 bonus AD

At 4.2 seconds you get another Q.

Max Q: (3 Qs + 1 E) = 650 base + 2.8 bonus AD

Max E: (3 Qs + 1 E) = 645 base + 2.8 bonus AD

So you've completely gimped your clear to have 100 more damage after 2.4 seconds. If you're ganking bot lane, you can only direct this damage onto one person. Maxing E first is only helpful if you find your opponents constantly escaping with less than 100 HP after 2.4 seconds, which shouldn't be happening that frequently.



Killing one person is a free turret or dragon typically and still beneficial, ganking on top or mid it is heavily favored as they have the easiest times getting away from ganks in the mid game due to wards or just general beefiness/escapes.

Moreover it seems to me you're doing level 1 Q+Lvl 5 E to lvl 5 Q+Lvl1 E

Which is wrong.


It'd be 5Q 2 W 1 E 1 R vs 5E 1W 2Q 1R.


Oh, and while you've been busy theorycrafting and being wrong, I've been busy playing games and actually testing it. It works wonders because you can kill someone virtually instantly with the laners assistance. That's far better than giving them 5 seconds to run away.
#33Frost_shock_FTWPosted 6/12/2013 1:10:32 PM
Moreover it seems to me you're doing level 1 Q+Lvl 5 E to lvl 5 Q+Lvl1 E

No, those numbers are 2Q 1W 5E 1R and 5Q 1W 2E 1R. Maybe you should look at them.

It works wonders because you can kill someone virtually instantly with the laners assistance. That's far better than giving them 5 seconds to run away.

So you're telling me you're sacrificing your entire ability to clear to have the most damage upfront at the 0 second mark, when after the 2.4 second mark the difference is negligible (again, no one runs away from a gank after 2.4 seconds with less than 100 HP remaining). I never disagreed that maxing E gives you the most possible damage immediately, but it is not worth the cost of having abysmal jungle clear and teamfight presence. Sticking to your gank target for 2.4 seconds is not hard with Hecarim's passive and E knockback.
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#34bobguydude1Posted 6/12/2013 1:13:58 PM
obvioustroll/10
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#35omega bahumat(Topic Creator)Posted 6/12/2013 1:21:56 PM
Frost_shock_FTW posted...
Moreover it seems to me you're doing level 1 Q+Lvl 5 E to lvl 5 Q+Lvl1 E

No, those numbers are 2Q 1W 5E 1R and 5Q 1W 2E 1R. Maybe you should look at them.

It works wonders because you can kill someone virtually instantly with the laners assistance. That's far better than giving them 5 seconds to run away.

So you're telling me you're sacrificing your entire ability to clear to have the most damage upfront at the 0 second mark, when after the 2.4 second mark the difference is negligible (again, no one runs away from a gank after 2.4 seconds with less than 100 HP remaining). I never disagreed that maxing E gives you the most possible damage immediately, but it is not worth the cost of having abysmal jungle clear and teamfight presence. Sticking to your gank target for 2.4 seconds is not hard with Hecarim's passive and E knockback.


You're wrong because the difference in clear speed is negligible. The upgront damage is worth far more, especially considering that maxing W is really only useful for full on teamfights (post level 13 typically). Being able to ensure that your target dies is far more valuable as a jungler than simply chasing them out of lane, especially if they are champions that kite really well.

People escape plenty of times from initial bursts with abysmally low hp. It happens all the time. Not having your laners burn summoners on a kill is always a plus. There is literally only one downside to it, and considering that you have yet to do anything other than spew conjecture and not actually test it means you don't know what you're talking.

Boo hoo, I have to auto attack wraiths 1 or 2 more times. Big whoop. A whopping 6 seconds added to the whole clear.
#36VoidgolemPosted 6/12/2013 1:48:06 PM
I wouldn't max E over Q since you still gotta clear the jungle.

maybe over W, tho. Spirit stone and rank 1 W is plenty of sustain for clearing purposes.
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#37lascat9Posted 6/12/2013 6:12:54 PM
Exalx posted...
lascat9 posted...
The problem with maxing E is this. What happens if the lanes aren't gankable?

You're. Screwed.

What happens if you max Q and the lanes are gankable?

Awesome, let's go right now.


That logic doesn't make any sense..

Isn't it supposed to be "what happened if lanes aren't gankable" and "what happens if you max q and lanes aren't gankable?"

If you're gonna compare something, you should compare them under the same situations and not cherry pick so that one is in an undesirable situation while the other is in a desirable one.


Clearly says "the lanes are gankable" in the 2nd section. lrn2read
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#38omega bahumat(Topic Creator)Posted 6/12/2013 7:44:51 PM
Voidgolem posted...
I wouldn't max E over Q since you still gotta clear the jungle.

maybe over W, tho. Spirit stone and rank 1 W is plenty of sustain for clearing purposes.


The jungle clear isn't affected much at all.
#39ExalxPosted 6/16/2013 4:51:58 PM
lascat9 posted...
Exalx posted...
lascat9 posted...
The problem with maxing E is this. What happens if the lanes aren't gankable?

You're. Screwed.

What happens if you max Q and the lanes are gankable?

Awesome, let's go right now.


That logic doesn't make any sense..

Isn't it supposed to be "what happened if lanes aren't gankable" and "what happens if you max q and lanes aren't gankable?"

If you're gonna compare something, you should compare them under the same situations and not cherry pick so that one is in an undesirable situation while the other is in a desirable one.


Clearly says "the lanes are gankable" in the 2nd section. lrn2read


And the first one says "aren't"

What happens if you max E and lanes aren't gankable.

What happens of you max Q and lanes aren't gankable.

Answer in both cases is farm or counter gank.

That is how you do a comparison.
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