I Used to be a good support... Wth happened?

#21DolethorPosted 7/8/2013 5:37:04 AM
So this guy basically refuses to actually play supports and instead tried to make Kayle, Nidalee, and Lux work in bot lane and then he wonders why he sucks as support?
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Frankly my Dear... let's get married again.
#22SkyzPosted 7/8/2013 6:27:32 AM
There was an article on Reignofgaming about people who think, "nothing is bad." Well TC in comparison your character(s) of choice are the reason you are having a bad time. And possibly other issues. Look into actually playing better supports if you want to be "better" at the role. I won't get super in depth with support play but I'll give you some basics that help even if you continue using the lesser supports.

-Stay with your ADC.

If a fight breaks out and you win the trade and the other team has to b. IF your ADC carry stays to farm stay with him. There's many examples but stay with your ADC at all times.
If you run out of wards. Tell the ADC, "I'm out of wards my man." That way he can push or do something to allow you both time to B together. Do not B alone to go get wards. Stay with your adc. I play support a ton. And doing that annoys ADC's to no end. They need you. Stay with them.

-Ward in places that make CS easier and do things that make CS easier.

If there's a poke support on the other side hiding in in their brush. For the love of god. Ward the brush. Don't make your ADC eat a Sona's burst to hit one minion. He'll hate you for it. And do it without him having to ask you. Ward Tribrush, river, bot enemy brush to avoid nearly all gank possibilities. If one of those places can't be warded assume the enemy jungler is there. In light of that don't be aggressive as hell when you don't have a clue where the jungler is.

If river isn't warded you and your ADC need to be all the way against the wall so you have space to move and make it difficult for the jungle to gank you. Also BUY wards all day long. In an even or losing game you need to just buy wards. And slowly SLOWLY put together aura items. You must have wards at all times. Only in stomps where you have assist gold can you put together items AND buy wards.

-Presence.

Don't just stand in lane being pointless as hell. Do something. If you're Soraka EVEN she can have presence constantly silencing and throwing auto attacks with her incredible sustain. With Leona get up in there faces at level 1 with your stun.

Make your ADC feel like he has a solid support. If he sees you have wards and you picked something solid into lane it goes a long way. That way he's more likely to DIVE with you and engage with you if he believes in you.
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Skyz the limit. Try and Reach it.
#23Sona_BuvellePosted 7/8/2013 6:35:02 AM
Supports need 3 things in order to succeed.

Good game sense. This covers everything from keeping proper ward coverage up, calling out enemy movement to your team (saying where the jungler is, calling missing lanes, etc), calling out objectives (hey guys we just killed their jungler and our jungler is full health, let's do dragon), and so on. The support needs to have one eye on her lane and the other eye on the minimap so she can give her team the information they need to win.

Gold efficiency. It's simply a truth of the meta right now that Supports don't get much, if any, gold. Therefore, supports that have a lot of gold efficiency in their kit will tend to be more successful than supports that don't. For example, I get approximately 6000 gold in free stats with a max rank Q that hits everyone on my team because that's 100 ad and ap. My W gives another 3000~ gold and my E gives another 4000 or so. To compare, Kayle's W gives somewhere between 1200 and 1400 gold depending on the base movement speed of her target.

Crowd Control. Stuns, snares, knockups, silences, disables, etc, these disruptions are all things that cannot be bought with gold and a champion can be a good support specifically because of them. Leona only has about 3000 free gold in ability stats, but she also has 3 forms of hard CC and one of them is AoE on a low cooldown. The only CC that can be purchased are slows from various objects (rylais, omen, shard of true ice, spooky ghosts, etc), so having harder forms of CC can make a champion viable as a support.


So, support Kayle can totally nail the first one. That's entirely on the player, after all. You could argue that support Nidalee is even better at it because her traps will reveal the area and can be used to scout bushes or whatever.

However, both of them kind of fail at the next two tests. They have very low amounts of gold efficiency and they don't have significant forms of CC. So they don't really make for good supports in the current meta.


Now, there is a strategic advantage to picking Kayle/Nidalee/Lux/other gold inefficient supports. They all scale really well if they do manage to make money. In a situation where the game lasts for 50 minutes and everyone has 6 items, Support Kayle is going to do more with that gold than Support Taric will. However, she's going to have a much harder time getting her team to that point since Taric does something for the first 45 minutes.

Furthermore, the easiest way for a Support to carry a game is to get her Carry fed with kills in lane. When facing opponents who make mistakes, the most effective supports tend to be 'kill lane' supports who can punish those mistakes and turn them into gold for her carry. Pre-30 you'll find that many unconventional champions do well as supports because of this principle (Pantheon, Volibear, Lux, Morgana, there are many guys who fall into this list). However, this strategy becomes significantly less effective against an opponent who makes less mistakes, which could account for your sudden decrease in Support effectiveness. It's not that you're become bad at it, but rather that your opponents have adjusted to your strategy.


My recommendation would be to pick up a support like Janna. Specifically focus on peeling for your carry, maintaining proper map awareness, and watching your fellow supports. You can learn a lot from your enemy in how to handle (or not handle) certain situations.
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Sona's thoughts on the matter:
http://i.imgur.com/GO5th.png
#24HappyDude69(Topic Creator)Posted 7/8/2013 7:28:31 AM
Dolethor posted...
So this guy basically refuses to actually play supports and instead tried to make Kayle, Nidalee, and Lux work in bot lane and then he wonders why he sucks as support?


I came looking for advice, not to complain. If you actually HAVE some advice, i would be more then happy to hear it.

@Sona_Buvelle thank you so much. It's a lot to take in but I'll defiantly read it over one or two more times. the gold efficiency was something that I never even considered, making me feel kind of stupid now lol,

I have tried Janna and didn't mind her at all so maybe I'll look at picking her up, are there any other supports you'd suggest? I do have lulu and suraka, but I'm terrible with them, perhaps I just need more practice.

And which item would you suggest I build with the gold efficiency in mind? Bulwark and sight stone are my usual two staples, as I understand that they should be.

Again, thanks so much for all your help guys, I'm actually learning a lot.
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"if i was a women i would kill myself so i would never have the chance to sleep with you" ~Cloneslayer
#25Sona_BuvellePosted 7/8/2013 9:34:48 AM
HappyDude69 posted...
@Sona_Buvelle thank you so much.

I have tried Janna and didn't mind her at all so maybe I'll look at picking her up, are there any other supports you'd suggest?

And which item would you suggest I build with the gold efficiency in mind?


Well, if I had to suggest another support, I guess I would have to suggest myself (I am the best support in the game, after all). My free week lasts until tomorrow, so you could try and see if I fit your playstyle or not. Otherwise, they'll be another support for free tomorrow and they might be a better fit for you. From what I know of your playstyle, you seem to favor aggressive supports, so Leona or Zyra might be a good match, but it's hard to say for certain.


Now, as for item builds...

You're right in thinking that Sightstone is important. You should be rushing it every game on every support, really, and even then you'll still need to buy normal wards on top of that. My general strategy is that if I can buy Sightstone all at once when I back I'll do so, otherwise I'll either get Philostone (if I need sustain in lane), a ruby crystal (if i don't), and then wards.


After you have Sightstone and Philostone, your next purchase will probably be your boots. For the mid game, you need to have high mobility so that you can respond to opportunities on the map or react to what your opponents are doing. For this I highly recommend Boots of Mobility on most supports; this will allow you to be where your team needs you to be in order to support them. It's often the difference between showing up to the Mid Lane before it falls and protecting it, or still being in the jungle when your mid lane gets three man dived.

Only supports that don't have high mobility need Mobos; Janna, Nunu, and Blitzcrank all have high movement speed from their abilities. For them, it's fine to go some other boot, like Ninja Tabi or Merc Treads or Boots of Swiftness.


Ruby Sightstone should be upgraded next so that you can maintain ward coverage. At this point, I tend to swap between carrying Green Wards to Pink wards so that I can de-ward as necessary, but that depends on how proactive the other team's support is with his warding.

Now, there are two aura items that every team really wants in order to succeed. Runic Bulwark and Locket of the Iron Solari. All aura items are useful, of course, but while every champion needs defense and damage, aura items that give defense are universal while aura items that give damage will only give either AD or AP which isn't quite universal. Besides, your teammates will already be building damage, so a damage aura item is only a small percentage of their build, while a defense aura item will end up being far more important to them.

Ideally, someone else on your team will be building one of these items so that they both finish some time before the end of the game. Many junglers and top lanes will want to have one of these, so communicate with them to find out who is building what.

After that, look at what you can turn Philostone into. Reverie is a great item to help your team engage or disengage, and Crucible is a great item for any support that uses a lot of mana (like me!). Remember that the cleanse on it cannot be used if you're stunned, so you'll mostly use it for single target stuns on your carry since aoe stuff might hit you too.

For other items, you'll rarely ever get to build them since a game needs to last a long time for you to have more than one major completed item. But if it does happen, you'll look to get what your team lacks, and I'll cover that in the next post.
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Sona's thoughts on the matter:
http://i.imgur.com/GO5th.png
#26Sona_BuvellePosted 7/8/2013 11:50:19 AM
Ok, so for any other items your goal is to buy what your team needs most in order to win. This requires a bit of game sense as well as an understanding of what the different items do, which is a bit hard to get across in a text post. But I can give you some advice on certain items.

Lets say that the enemy team is focused on poking. Their goal is to weaken your team to half or so through Nidalee spears or Xerath's lightning bolts or Jayce's power slam and then once you're low they can go in. The way to counter this is through pushing lanes and health sustain, because they can't afford to siege your tower for 3 minutes if minions are killing their base and you're not losing much health through the whole thing.

The counter to that specific situation is Banner of Command. It allows you to purchase a split push solution through it's minion promotion ability, the health regen aura will stack with the one from your top lane's Runic Bulwark, and the increased minion damage will help you keep their minions off of your tower.


Or to look at another solution, let's say that your team's sole form of initiation is through Nocturne ulting their Ezreal to try and create an opening. However, every time he does so Ezreal just blinks away and then your team cannot get through his team in order to kill him.

This would be solved by purchasing Shard of True Ice and upgrading your Philo into a Reverie. Using Shard's active on Nocturne just before he ults allows him to pass through the entire enemy team, applying the 30% slow on the way, tag Ezreal with the slow so that even after he shifts away he's still slow for a bit, and then giving your team a movement speed buff to get better positioning on the slower enemy team. In this fashion you can purchase items to make up for your team's weak initiation.

The key problem to this is of course that you won't have the money for these items when you need them the most, meaning you'll likely not get them until it's too late. Being able to suddenly initiate after 40 minutes of bad initiates is often not going to turn a game around, and you can't really afford to cut corners on a support budget because your team also needs wards and Locket and Bulwark and so on. However, these items can turn an even game into a winning game if your opponents don't anticipate that you've purchased something that gives your team a distinct advantage; late game a single catch or mistake can decide a game, so if you suddenly bought Twin Shadows and used it's slow to catch their mid away from the team and kill them, that could result in your team powering down their mid lane and winning entirely based off of that play.


My best advice to you in that regard is to look at what aura items exist as well as items with actives (abilities you cna activate by clicking on the item) exist. Then make decisions based on what those items do and what your team needs. With a bit of experimentation you'll know what to do in no time.

Just... don't forget to get your core items and wards first. Your team can't do anything if they can't see anything, after all...
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Sona's thoughts on the matter:
http://i.imgur.com/GO5th.png
#27iXCelticXiPosted 7/8/2013 2:53:05 PM
KrKABUT0 posted...
iXCelticXi posted...
Yu are gud. Patoy sux.


You're comparing a professional Korean player to average NA players.
...Right.
Just because a pro makes it work doesn't mean we can.

HappyDude69 posted...
For those who say kayle is a bad support, where to you think I should be playing her?


Kayle's an incredible top or mid, especially built as a glass cannon. People prefer her mid since she is much scarier when she's roaming and she desperately needs blue. She's a great bully at top but isn't very good against anyone with a gap closer.


Please stop doing that talking thing. It cements your idiocy. I was never comparing the players but rather showing that Kayle can indeed be played as a support. But hey you heard it here, folks. Making people immune to damage sucks because of CC.

Also, Patoy is the sickest Korean dude ever. Googling before you make a silly claim is not difficult. Ctrl + T. The official "save some face" hotkey.
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LoL IGN: Greedy